Digitized  by  the  Internet  Archive 

in  2007  with  funding  from 

Microsoft  Corporation 


http://www.archive.org/details/confidentialprocOOtranrich 


•  CONFIDENTIAL 

mi    hi      »iii    ninim  nmriiniiiiHi  nminmmiiimi  iiiiiiiimn  mnm    Ulilffin 


PROCEEDINGS 


Trans-Continental 


— 4. 


.   ASSOCIATION  $ 


GENERAL    MEETING 

San    Francisco,  January  12  to  22 


"m,,,"m;"1 —  "",: 


-27^3 


7 


si+h 


PROCEEDINGS  OF  MEETING. 


Meeting  convened  at  2.30  p.  m. 

The  following  roads  were  represented: 

Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe,         -  h 

Atlantic  &  Pacific, 
Burlington  <fc  Missouri  River, 


Trans-Continental  Association/ 

(General  Meeting,) 

Palace  Hotel, 
San  Francisco,  Jan.  12,  1885. 


Central  Pacific, 


7*, 


(J.  F.  GODDARD. 

<  J.  S.  Leeds. 
(W.  F.  White. 

G.  W.  Ristine. 

j  Thos.  Miller. 
1  P.  S.  Eustis. 

f  A.N.  Towne. 
•<  J.  C.  Stubbs. 
(R.  Gray. 

S.  K.  Hooper. 

S.  W.  Eccles. 


Denver  &  Rio  Grande,        -    **' 
Denver  &  Rio  Grande  Western, 

Galveston,  Harrisburg  &  San  Antonio,    j  j'  (V  rTUbbs 


Northern  Pacific,     - 

Oregon  Railway  &  Navigation,  - 

Southern  Pacific,    - 
Texas  &  Pacific, 

Dnion  Pacific, 


(T.  F.  Oakes. 

<  J.  M.  Hannaford. 

(Chas.  S.  Fee. 

Prescott. 


(C.  H.  P: 

<  J.  Muir. 
( A.  L.  St 

(A.N.  To 
1  J.  C.  Sti 
( R.  Gray. 


Stokes. 

A.  N.  Towne. 
Stubbs. 


H.  B.  Smith,  Jr. 

T.  L.  Kimball. 

P.  P.  Shelby. 
\  C.  S.  Stebbins. 
I  J.  W.  Morse. 

G.  CANNON, 
Acting  Commissioner. 


SSJSTw.  The  Commissioner— In  adjourning  the  Chicago  meeting 
marks.  ^o  ^js  p0int}  many  important  matters  were  left  over  for 
disposition  here.  Among  others  I  might  mention  the  ques- 
tion of  percentages,  the  allotment  by  the  Arbitrator  ap- 
pointed at  the  October  meeting  not  being  acceptable  to 
several  of  the  members  for  continuance  beyond  December 
31st,  also  the  election  of  a  Commissioner.  We  will  take  up 
whatever  you  may  determine  the  most  important  to  dispose 
of  first.  I  might  add,  also,  that  a  reorganization  of  the 
Association  was  contemplated.  This,  I  do  not  think,  can 
be  accomplished  effectively  and  successfully  until  you  agree 
upon  a  redistribution  of  the  revenue.  I  think  that  subject 
should  receive  your  first  attention.  It  seems  to  me  that  if 
you  agree  to  make  a  pool  upon  percentages  which  are  to  be 
operative  from  January  1st,  you  would  have  a  good  ground 
to  work  upon,  otherwise  I  do  not  see  that  the  taking  up  of 
other  matters  would  do  any  particular  good.  What  do  you 
think  about  this,  Mr.  Towne  ? 

Mr.  Towne— While  there  are  others  here  who  can  judge 
of  the  situation  probably  better  than  myself,  the  proposi- 
tion would  seem  to  me  as  a  good  one.  I  think,  that  with 
the  percentages  disposed  of,  other  matters  would  be  much 
easier  to  handle. 

p-?Ss,?oo,       Mr.  Stubbs — I  have  a  matter  which  should  receive  imme- 

rates  forl884 

coutinued     diate  attention.     You  all  understand  that  the   old  rates — 

until  Janu- 

uary2o.  that  js>  the  rates  prevailing  previous  to  December  31st,  by 
Pacific  Mail,  were  continued  until  the  sailing  of  the  steamer 
of  January  10th.  No  provision  for  such  business  has  been 
made  beyond  that  date. 

I  move  that  these  rates  be  continued  until  and  including  the  steamer  of 
January  20th,  1885. 

Seconded  by  Mr.  Kimball. 

Adopted. 

Mr.  Goddard — Mr.  Chairman,  I  think  there  may  be  some 
here  who  would  like  to  understand  fully  the  situation  as  re- 


garcls  our  relations  with  the  Trunk  Lines.  Mr.  Stubbs,  sub- 
sequent to  our  Chicago  meeting,  had  a  conference  with  the 
representatives  of  these  lines,  and,  for  myself,  am  somewhat 
in  the  dark  as  to  the  result,  although  I  have  received  some 
indirect  information.  Probably  Mr.  Stubbs  will  give  us  a 
little  light  upon  the  subject. 

Mr.  Morse — Is  the  Burlington  and  Missouri  Kiver  repre- 
sented here  to-day  ? 

The  Commissioner — They  are  not  represented  to-day. 

Mr.  Towxe — Do  you  understand  that  they  are  to  be  pres- 
ent during  this  session  ? 

The  Commissioner —I  would  state  that  I  am  in  receipt  of 
advice  to  the  effect  that  Messrs.  Miller  and  Eustis  are  en 
route,  but  are  twelve  hours  late;  therefore,  we  can  hardly 
expect  their  presence  before  to-morrow  morning. 

Mr.  Stubbs — The  Trunk  Lines  have  agreed  to  adopt  the  Mr  stubbs- 

<-"  '  report  on 

tariff  of  January  1st,  but  refuse  to  become  parties  to  any  Trmik 

*  '  r  j      -Lin,  - 

special  contracts.     I  tried  my  best  to  argue  the  question,   tji 

1  t  -mrn  special  ratei 

but  they  all  said  that  the  argument  was  stale.  While  they 
treated  me  with  every  courtesy,  they  did  not  wish  to  do  it. 
They  preferred  to  try  it  a  year  without  any  contracts.  They 
further  said  that  while  they  preferred  that  no  contracts 
should  be  made,  still  they  would  not  object  if  their  western 
connections  joined  with  us  in  making  contracts.    They  made 

i  condition   to   that,   that  the  "Sunset  Route"   should 

maintain  rates,  and  should  not  enter  the  territory  west  of 

rk,  Philadelphia  and  Baltimore;  all  Coast  points  east 

of  that  are  open  to  the  "Sunset  Route."     The  New  England 

lines,  although  they  received  a  communication,  and  indeed 

commendation,  from  the  Trunk  Lines,  to  adopt  this  tar- 
iff, ignored  the  recommendation,  and  passed  a  resolution 
that,  having  had  experience  with  the  California  business, 
they  proposed,  on  and  after  January  1st,  to  charge  their 
local  rales  to  Chicago.  The  Trunk  Lines,  after  making  their 
eement  with  me,  said  they  would  take  the  matter  up  with 


6 

the  New  England  lines,  and  try  and  persuade  them  to  adopt 
the  tariff,  but  did  not  think  that  they  could  do  it  for  eight 
or  ten  days.  I  agreed,  or  they  suggested,  that  I  should  go 
and  see  the  New  England  Committee,  which  I  did,  and  after 
two  or  three  hours'  talk  they  passed  a  resolution  to  the  effect 
that  owing  to  the  assurances  of  Mr.  Stubbs,  that  the  "Sun- 
set" would  maintain  rates,  they  would  adopt  the  tariff.  That 
leaves  all  New  England  open  to  the  "Sunset,"  just  as  it  was 
before. 

Mr.  Eistine — Mr.  Stubbs,  the  Trunk  Lines  had  agreed  to 
this  tariff  when  I  left  New  York.  It  was  understood  that  I 
should  publish  it. 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  have  not  the  Minutes  with  me,  but  I  have 
at  my  office  a  transcript  of  the  entire  conversation.  I  made  the 
point  with  Mr.  Hayden,  who  did  most  of  the  talking,  that  you 
had  sent  a  telegram  to  Mr.  Guilford,  pressing  that  they  adopt 
this  tariff  until  January  31,  and  that  you  had  received  a  dis- 
patch from  Mr.  Guilford,  saying  either  that  the  Trunk  Lines 
would,  or  he  thought  they  would.  They  then  called  my 
attention  to  the  fact,  that  another  telegram  had  been  sent, 
saying  as  they  understood  that  Mr.  Stubbs  was  to  be  in  New 
York  on  Monday,  they  proposed  to  wait  his  arrival  before 
giving  definite  answers. 

Mr.  Eistine — The  telegram  was  never  received. 

Mr.  Stubbs — They  took  the  position  that  they  did  not 
agree  to  anything. 

Mr.  Eistine — They  did  not  as  a  body,  but  after  the  meet- 
ing on  Saturday  afternoon,  Mr.  Midgley,  and  I  believe 
Messrs.  Goddard  and  Hannaford,  with  myself  interviewed 
Mr.  Guilford  upon  the  situation,  and  I  asked  Mr.  G.  partic- 
ularly as  to  their  position  regarding  the  new  tariff,  and  sug- 
gested that  we  had  better  go  ahead  and  print  the  tariff,  he 
replied,  "Yes,  you  had  better  go  ahead." 

Mr.  Stubbs— They  assumed  the  position,  and  I  have  the 
record,  that  they  had  made  no  agreement  whatever. 


Mr.  PtiSTJXE — I  merely  raised  the  point  to  see  whether 
they  had  changed  their  minds  since  we  were  there. 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  think   probably  the  telegram  referred  to 
arrived  after  you  had  left. 

Mr.  Eistixe — I  certainly  never  received  it. 

Mr.  Stubbs — Now,  Mr.  Commissioner,  I  think  it  would  be  subject  of 

special  ra 
Pittsburg 
aiid  west. 


in  order  before   going  any  further,  for  the  Association  to  Pittsburgh 


determine  whether  they  will  undertake  to  secure  the  assent 
of  the  Middle  and  Western  States  Lines  and  the  Pacific 
Coast  Association  Lines,  and  determine  whether  our  own 
lines  shall  make  contracts  on  the  original  basis,  that  is  with 
a  few  of  the  large  jobbers  on  a  per  centage  or  discount  basis. 

The  Commissioner — That  i3  from  Pittsburg  and  west. 

Mr.  Stubbs — Independent  of  the  Trunk  Lines,  whether  it 
would  be  expedient  to  do  so  or  not,  and  while  I  bring  that 
before  the  Association,  I  want  it  clearly  and  definitely  under- 
stood that  the  Central  Pacific  does  not  "  care  a  rush  "  what 
you  do  about  it,  notwithstanding  what  the  newspapers  say. 

The  Commissioner — I  would  like  to  ask  whether  Mr. 
Stubbs  thinks  that  everything  has  been  done  with  the  Trunk 
Lines  that  can  be  done. 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  do.  I  would  not  waste  five  minutes  in 
discussing  the  matter  with  them. 

The  Commissioner — I  notice  about  45  per  cent,  of  the 
business  emanates  from  New  York  and  common  points. 

Mr.  STUBBS— My  impression  is,  that  the  best  way  to  treat 
them  now  is  to  go  ahead.  They  were  evidently  determined 
not  to  join  in  any  special  contracts,  believing  that  it  hardly 
paid  them  for  the  confusion  in  their  accounts,  incident  to 
this  manner  of  conducting  the  business,  and  I  think  we  had 
better  go  ahead  and  ignore  them  in  this  matter  ;  indeed, 
make  no  special  contracts  on  Atlantic  Coast  business,  and 
let  the  few  months  that  are  to  follow  determine  who  was 
right,   the  Trans-Continental  or  the  Trunk  Lines.     While 


s 


they  profess  to  think  very  little  of  the  California  business, 
when  they  see  a  large  volume  of  freight  leaving  the  lines 
and  going  round  Cape  Horn,  as  I  think  they  will,  it  will  be 
an  easy  matter  for  us  to  go  to  them  and  say,  "This  is  the 
result."  In  order  to  get  the  business  we  must  make  some 
special  rates,  and  while  it  is  going  to  make  it  an  expensive 
experiment  I  see  no  other  way  to  handle  it. 

The  Commissioner — Mr.  Kimball,  I  would  like  an  ex- 
pression from  you  on  this  point,  if  you  please. 

Mr.  Kimball — I  think  all  understand  my  views  upon  the 
general  question  of  special  contracts.  I  have  always  been 
in  favor  of  muking  them,  and  have  seen  no  reason  yet  for 
changing  my  views,  but,  as  Mr.  Stubbs  says,  the  position 
of  the  Trunk  Lines  has  been  taken — they  are  opposed  to 
this  manner  of  doing  the  business,  and  my  advices  from  the 
Pacific  Coast  Association  show  that  those  Associated  Lines 
are  in  perfect  accord  with  the  Trunk  Lines  on  that  question, 
and  I  think  that  we  should  consider,  from  this  time  on,  that 
special  contracts  are  abandoned.  We  shall  learn  a  lesson 
inside  of  six  months,  certainly  inside  of  twelve,  that  we 
have  made  a  mistake,  and  that  the  experience  of  the  Central 
and  Union  Pacific  roads,  in  handling  this  business  from 
Coast  to  Coast,  should  have  been  taken  for  something  by 
this  Association,  and  by  the  lines  east  of  us;  but  we  are 
willing  to  go  into  the  boat  with  the  rest  of  you  and  make 
a  trial. 


Position  of 
Eastern 
Lines  on 
special  rates 


The  Commissioner— Mr.  Goddard, 
from  you  on  this  point. 


I  should  like  to  hear 


Mr.  Goddard — My  understanding  of  the  situation,  as 
stated  by  Mr.  Stubbs,  is  this:  The  Trunk  Lines  start  out 
by  stating  that  they  will  not  be  parties  to  any  special 
contracts.  Then  you  have  their  statement  that  if  inter- 
mediate lines  wish  to  join  in  them  they  would  not  object. 
Is  not  that  their  position,  Mr.  Stubbs  ? 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  do  not  think  I  stated  it  in  that  way.  I 
said  that  the  Trunk  Lines  would  not  become  parties  to  any 


9 

special  contracts;  that  they  preferred  that  no  special  con- 
tracts should  be  made;  that  is,  by  any  portion  of  the  line, 
but  that  all  parties  to  the  through  line  should  adhere  rigidly 
to  the  tariff;  yet,  if  their  western  connections  wished  to 
join  the  Trans-Continental  Lines  in  making  special  con- 
tracts, which  would  not  involve  them  in  the  rebates,  require 
them,  the  Trunk  Lines,  to  bear  any  portion  of  them,  they 
would  not  object,  that  is,  they  would  make  that  much  of  a 
concession,  from  their  desire  that  no  contracts  should  be 
made  whatever. 

Mr.  Goddard — I  thought  they  left  it  optional  with  the 
intermediate  lines? 

Mr.  Stubbs — They  will  not  pay  one  cent  off  the  published 
tariff  rates. 

Upon  request,  the  Commissioner  read  the  following  tel- 
egram : 

"New  York,  December  30,  1884. 
G.  W.  Ristine,  San  FYancisco:  r 

We  have  to-day  agreed  with   Mr.  Stubbs  to  put  in  effect,  January  1st,  the  Telegram 

proposed  tariff  of  through  rates  from  New  York,  Philadelphia  and  Baltimore  from  Trunk 

to  Pacific  Coast.     No  special  contracts  to  be  made.     No  pool  agreed  upon.  t.  C.  A  ' 

'Sunset'  to  be  excluded  from  all  interior  points,  west  of  points  named.     Mr.  ^la88itl<:a- 

Stul.l.s  will  go  to  Boston  to  confer  with  New  England  roads  regarding  traffic  Tariff  No.  l, 

from  points  east  of  New  York,  these  roads  having  signified  their  desire  to  deal  jan  \  Vs">- 
with  tin-  question  themselves.     The  Trunk  Lines  did  not  feel  at  liberty  to  act 
as  to  traffic  from  that  territory. 

(Signed)        N.  Guilford." 

Mr.  STUBBS — They  had  written  up,  and  their  advice  to  the 
\  England  Executive  Committee  was  to  the  effect  that 
no  contracts  were  to  be  made.  Mr.  Guilford  had  that  im- 
pression, that  I  agreed  for  the  Trans-Continental  Associa- 
tion that  no  contracts  should  be  made  by  any  of  the  lines. 
I  called  for  the  stenographer,  and  had  him  go  over  his  notes, 
and  he  found  that  I  had  drawn  out  of  Mr.  Hayden  the 
admission  that  if  the  lines  west  of  the  Trunk  Lines'  western 
termini  wished  to  join  with  us  in  any  contracts,  they  would 
Dot  object.  In  every  other  respect  Mr.  Guilford's  statement 
is  correct. 


10 

A°STi0&  sf  ^■r*  Goddard — In  answer  to  your  question,  Mr.  Chairman, 
frai°co?-en'  *ne  Pos^ion  of  our  compauy  has  been  pretty  clearly  defined 
tract  plan.  jn  the  past.  When  our  line  was  opened  to  California,  and 
conference  was  held  in  San  Francisco  between  the  repre- 
sentatives of  the  Union  Pacific,  the  Central  Pacific  and 
myself,  to  determine  upon  the  plan  to  be  adopted  for  the 
following  year.  I  then  said,  and  do  not  hesitate  to  say  now, 
that  I  oppose  the  general  contract  plan.  I  have  been  op- 
posed to  this  basis  for  the  conduct  of  Pacific  Coast  busi- 
ness ever  since,  but  always  expressing  the  thought  that  it 
was  necessary  to  make  a  certain  number  of  special  contracts. 
We  have  given  due  deference  to  the  experience  of  the  older 
roads  in  this  matter,  and  after  discussing  the  subject  each 
year,  as  the  record  shows,  this  system  of  handling  the  busi- 
ness has  been  continued  in  the  old  way,  upon  the  old  basis 
up  to  the  present  time.  There  are  many  arguments  on  both 
sides  of  the  question,  but  I  still  think  to-day,  in  conson- 
ance with  my  expressions  in  the  past,  that  a  few  special  con- 
tracts should  be  made.  I  do  not,  however,  believe  that  it  is 
the  best  policy,  or  will  bring  the  greatest  revenue,  to  foster 
a  continuance  of  the  general  plan. 

Mr.  Stubbs — As  I  understood  it,  our  meeting  in  October 
settled  that  question,  that  as  a  general  plan  the  system  of 
contracting  was  abandoned;  that  we  agreed  to  make  a  few, 
compared  with  the  2200  or  2300  we  had  previously;  that  we 
recommended  that  plan  to  the  Pacific  Coast  Association,  and 
they  agreed  to  it;  that  we  recommended  that  plan  to  the 
representatives  of  the  Middle  and  Western  States  Associa- 
tion, and  that  they  agreed  to  it;  that  we  recommended  this 
plan  to  the  Trunk  Lines,  and  that  they  refused  to  agree  to  it. 
Now,  the  question  as  raised  by  Mr.  Kimball,  or  perhaps 
suggested  by  myself,  is  whether,  in  view  of  the  action  of  the 
Trunk  Lines,  we  should  resolve  that  we  will  have  no  special 
contracts  from  Atlantic  Coast  or  from  any  other  points,  and 
work  this  year  squarely  on  the  open  tariff. 

Mr.  Towne — If  so  much  of  the  business  comes  from  the 
interior,  why  should  we  be  so  much  dependent  upon  the 


11 

Trunk  Lines  ?  A  very  large  tonnage  coming  to  this  coast, 
originates  at  the  interior  points,  Pittsburgh,  Buffalo  and 
west  thereof,  in  which  the  Trunk  Lines  have  no  voice. 

The  Commissioner  —  In  answer  to  that  question,  Mr.  of^nwSe8 
Towne,  we  have  prepared  a  statement  of  the  business  for  ?JrdocIS! 
the  month  of  October.  We  have  never  made  showing  in 
this  manner  before,  but  it  has  been  a  necessity  on  account 
of  the  accounting  under  the  pool.  The  percentages  of  ton- 
nage and  revenue  from  the  different  points  stand  as  fol- 
lows : 

From  New  York  and  common  points Tonnage,  38 .  31    Revenue,  45 .  59 


"     Pittsburgh    " 
11     Cleveland     " 

(C                            {( 

u 

12.52 

8.77 

8.27 
5.48 

11     Cincinnati     " 

It                   <( 

<( 

11.26 

10.68 

"     Chicago         " 
' 4    St.  Louis ) 
and  New  >■    ' ' 
Orleans    ) 

<«  

<< 

16.37 
8.58 

17.40 
7.36 

"     Missouri  River 

common  points 

" 

4.19 

5.22 

Mr.  Towxe — What  percentage  do  you  calculate  as  from 
New  York? 

The  Commissioner — Tonnage,  38.31  from  New  York  and 
common  points. 

Mr.  Towne—  What  percentage  do  you  determine  as  com- 
ing from  New  York  proper  ? 

The  Commissioner — I  cannot  say.  The  tonnage  subject 
to  direct  water  competition  is  38.31,  which  leaves  61.69  from 
Pittsburgh  and  west  thereof. 

Mi  —  That   leaves  61.69   subject  to  special  con- 

ts.     I  understood  Mr.  Kimball  to  say  that  his  advices 
from  the  rail  connections  of  the  Union  Pacific  are  that  since 
the  Trunk  Lines  refuse  to  make  special  contracts,  they  also 
ie.     I  don't  know,  therefore,  that  we  have  anything  to 
bout.      What  are  the  percentages  East-bound  for  Oc- 
tober ? 


12 


Plan  of  pro- 
cedure. 


Terms  of 
territorial 
division  be- 
tween the 
Northern 
and  South- 
ern Lines. 

Two  pools  to 
be  formed. 

Roads  com- 
posing East- 
ern pool. 

Roads  eom- 
posingWest- 
ern  pool. 


The  Commissioner— 

To  New  York  and  common  points Tonnage,  26.98  Revenue,  31.78 

"Pittsburgh"        "            "      "          1.36  "            153 

"Cleveland     "        "            ■■      "          0.35  "            0.42 

"Cincinnati"        "            "       "          4.20  "            5.99 

"Chicago       "        "            "       "        34.25  "          30.21 

"lew^ai}       "  "       "        10'80  "     =     12'68 

1 '  Missouri  River  common  points  "        22.06  "  17 .  39 

Mr.  Kistine — Mr.  Stubbs,  did  you  see  Mr.  Midgley  on 
your  return  ? 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  did  not  get  an  opportunity  to  see  him. 

Mr.  Ristine  —Mr.  Shelby,  have  you  ? 

Mr.  Shelby — I  have  not. 

Mr.  Ristine— Mr.  Kimball  ? 

Mr.  Kimball — No,  sir,  but  have  seen  parties  that  have 
seen  him. 

Mr.  Stubbs  offered  the  following: 

Whereas,  it  has  been  suggested  by  the  Acting  Commissioner  that  it  would 
be  better  first  to  distribute  the  revenue  which  is  proposed  to  be  pooled,  be  it 
resolved  that  the  plan  of  procedure  shall  be  to — 

First— Determine  the  terms  of  territorial  division  between  the  Northern 
Pacific,  Oregon  Kailway  &  Navigation  and  Oregon  Short  Line  Companies  on 
the  one  hand,  and  the  balance  of  the  members  of  the  Association  on  the 
other  hand. 

Second— That  after  said  territorial  division  shall  have  been  made,  two 
pools  shall  be  formed — one  to  consist  of  the  lines  or  companies,  members  of 
this  Association  connecting  with  the  Central  Pacific  R.  R.  at  Ogden,  the 
Atlantic  &  Pacific  R.  R.  at  Albuquerque,  and  the  Southern  Pacific  R.  R.  at 
Deming  and  El  Paso  respectively;  the  other  to  be  composed  of  the  Central 
Pacific,  Atlantic  &  Pacific  and  the  Southern  Pacific  companies. 

Mr.  Stubbs — My  object  in  introducing  that  resolution  is 
to  simplify  the  question  of  distribution  of  the  revenue.  By 
it  we  will  avoid  all  the  complications  that  evidently  floored 
Mr.  Tucker  in  his  consideration  of  the  question.  I  do  not 
think  there  is  any  question  but  what  the  Central,  Southern 
and  Atlantic  &  Pacific  Companies  can  agree  as  to  what  is 
a  fair  division  as  between  them. 


13      • 

Mr.  Tiistixe — Would  it  not  be  better  to  defer  discussion 
of  that  proposition  until  the  arrival  of  the  B.  &  M. 
representatives  ? 

The  Commissioner — I  might  state  in  this  connection  that  ^rS^t 
I  have  a  statement  of  freight  earnings  for  the   month  of  f™£ *»rp ^ 
October  under  the  Pool,  which,   when   the  Association  is  tober- 
ready  to  consider  the  question  of  percentages,  I  would  be 
glad  to  present,  if  so   desired.     It  would   be  utterly   im- 
possible  to   collect   sufficient   passenger   data   to   make    a 
similar  statement. 

Mr.  Towne — What  was  your  last  month's  statement  of 
Passenger  business? 

The  Commissioner— July.     For  Freight  we  have  October. 

Mr.  Shelby— We  have  not  received  September  yet  on 
Freight. 

The  Commissioner — It  went  forward  to  your  office  several 
days  ago. 

Mr.  Stubbs— I  offer  this  resolution  for  consideration  as  to 
whether  it  would  not  be  the  best  way  to  settle  it. 

An  informal  discussion  occurred  upon  the  question  of  the 
resolution. 

Mr.  Stubbs  stated  that  it  was  desired  to  make  the  pools 
independent;  that  as  it  existed  at  the  present  time,  the 
terminal  lines  were  forced  to  pay  over  money  to  eastern 
connections — lines  which  could  not  be  considered  as  com- 
petitive with  the  terminal  companies — and  claimed  that, 
consequently,  the  companies  represented  by  him  had  suffered 
an  enormous  and  unreasonable  loss. 

The  Commissioner— The  resolution  is  not  seconded. 

Mr.  STUBBS— The  Central  Pacific  will  submit  it,  and  the 
Southern  Pacific  will  second  it. 

Mr.«GoDDAHD— Mr.  Chairman,  it  seems  to  mo  that  this 
resolution  is  one  that  requires  consideration.     We  do  not 


14 


Commis- 
sioner's re- 
marks. 


Shall  spe- 
cial Orange 
rate  apply 
to  St.  Paul? 


want  to  vote  upon  this  proposition  hastily,  and  while  I  am 
as  anxious  as  any  one  to  get  through  with  this  work  and 
return  home,  I  would  like  time  for  its  consideration. 

Mr.  Stubbs — Cannot  each  one  take  a  copy  of  it  to-night? 
I  do  not  ask  for  its  immediate  discussion. 

It  was  ordered  that  copies  be  prepared. 

Mr.  Kimball — I  would  make  a  suggestion,  that  as  every 
member  of  this  Association  will  be  interviewed  by  repre- 
sentatives of  your  local  press,  that  we  have  it  understood 
that  no  information  regarding  the  actions  of  this  meeting  or 
discussions  which  may  take  place  in  our  meeting  shall  be 
given  to  the  press,  except  through  the  presiding  officer.  I 
make  that  as  a  motion,  adding  that  the  presiding  officer  shall 
exercise  his  judgment  as  to  what  matter  shall  be  communi- 
cated to  them. 

Seconded  by  Mr.  Kistine. 

Adopted. 

Adjourned  until  9.30  a.  m. 


Tuesday,  January  13,  1885 — Morning  Session. 
Meeting  convened  at  10  a.  m. 
All  members  represented. 

The  Commissioner — I  would  like  to  present  a  matter  which 
should  receive  your  immediate  attention.  Regarding  the 
rates  on  Oranges  east-bound — there  are  several  cars  of  that 
class  of  business  in  transit  for  St.  Paul.  There  was  made 
at  the  last  meeting  of  the  Association  a  rate  of  $1.00  per 
100  pounds  from  California  terminals  to  Missouri  Eiver 
points.  Now,  the  question  arises,  does  that  rate  apply  to 
St.  Paul?  The  special  was  issued  by  the  Commissioner's 
Office,  as  applying  from  California  terminals  to  "  Missouri 
River  points,"  and  not  to  "  Missouri  River  common  points." 
The  question  which  presents  itself  now  is  as  to  whether  St. 
Paul  was  intended  to  be  included.  • 


15 

Mr.  Ristine — I  do  not  see  why  it  should  not  apply  to  St. 
Paul.  St.  Paul  takes  the  Missouri  River  rate.  The  agree- 
ment covers  this. 

Mr.  Gray— There  seems  to  be  a  question  as  to  the  roads 
accepting  the  rate. 

Mr.  Ristine — They  have  submitted  a  proposition  to  make 
Omaha  rates  to  St.  Paul,  based  on  Chicago  divisions. 

The  Commissioner — As  the  special  is  now  issued  it  would 
not  cover  St.  Paul;  it  would  not  cover  Houston  or  Galves- 
ton. It  should  have  been  issued,  "  Missouri  River  common 
points/'  in  which  case  it  would  have  covered  those  points. 

Mr.  Ristine — It  is  understood  that  the  term  "Missouri 
River  points  "  covers  Galveston,  Houston  and  St.  Paul,  I 
take  it;  but  when  you  say  "Missouri  River  common  points," 
it  may  affect  some  points  which  take  an  arbitrary  on  in 
order  to  take  Missouri  River  rates. 

Mr.  Stubbs — Mr.  Commissioner,  as  a  preliminary  matter  blb. smith, 

Jr.  to  reprt'- 

I  will  say  that  I  have  a  dispatch  from  Mr.  Olds,  saying  that  sen'ttheT.& 
their  agent  here,  Mr.  H.  B.  Smith,  Jr.,  will  represent  them 
in  this  meeting,  and  asking  me  to  give  him  advice.     I  now 
move 

That  Mr.  Smith  be  admitted  as  the  representative  of  the  Texas  &  Pacifie 
Company. 

Seconded  by  Mr.  Goddard. 
\<lopted. 

The  Commissioner— We  will  consider  the  Orange  rate  as 
applying  to  St.  Paul.     What  do  you  say,  Mr.  Stubbs  ? 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  understood  that  it  applied  to  Kansas  City,  orange  rate 
Omaha  and  common  points.     I  cannot  recall  exactly  the  s< 
wording  of  it,  but  presume  that  the  Minutes  would  be  con- 
clusive as  to  that,  and  at  the  same   time,  as  I  recollect  it, 
the  Commissioner  was  to  undertake  to   get   that  rate   to 
Chicago  and  St.  Louis. 


16 

Mr.  Goddaed — I  am  not  sure,  but  it  seems  to  me  that  St. 
Paul  ought  to  be  admitted  to  the  rate. 

Mr.  Ristine — I  should  say  so. 

Agreed. 

The  Commissioner — Shall  we  take  up  the  unfinished 
business  of  yesterday  ?  Are  there  any  other  matters  which 
require  immediate  action  ? 

Informal  discussion. 

Rateoncast       Mr.  Stubbs — Mr.   Commissioner,  what  was  done  at  Chi- 
fromst.        casro  about  rate  on  Cast  Iron  Pipe  from  St.  Louis. 

Louis.  "  D  r 

The  Commissioner — It  was  agreed  to  make  a  rate  of  75 
cents  per  100  lbs.,  if  the  St.  Louis-Kansas  City  lines  would 
agree. 

Mr.  Stubbs — Did  those  lines  agree  to  the  rate. 

Mr.  Ristine — No,  they  would  not.  It  was  agreed  to  make 
a  75-cent  rate,  provided  the  St.  Louis  lines  would  stand  in. 
I  addressed  a  communication  to  Commissioner  Midgley 
before  leaving  Chicago,  but  he  declined  on  the  general  prin- 
ciple that  no  special  contracts  were  to  be  made  during  the 
month  of  January.  He  claimed  that  it  would  be  a  "special," 
and  different  from  the  tariff.  In  advising  Mr.  Midgley  of 
the  action  of  this  Association,  I  said  that  we  hoped  he  would 
secure  the  assent  of  his  lines  to  the  rate,  as  it  was  one  abso- 
lutely necessary  as  against  Cape  Horn  competition. 

The  Commissioner  introduced  a  letter  from  the  Commis- 
sioner of  the  Pacific  Coast  Association,  reading  as  follows: 

Chicago,  Dec.  24,  1884. 
Geo.  W.  Ristine,  Commissioner,  San  Francisco: 

Letter  from  DeAB  SlE    YoUV  letter  of   the    19th    inst*'  regardirig  a  75  cent  rate  en  Iron 

J.  w.  Midge-  Pipe  from  St.  Louis  to  the  Pacific  Coast,  and  a  rate  of  $1.00  per  cwt.  on  Or- 

to  ttfeCast  ailges  in  car  lots  from  California  to  Chicago  and  St.  Louis,  came  duly  to  hand 

Iron  Pipe  I  haVe  deferred  replying  thereto  until  opportunity  could  be  had  to  confer  with 

rate.  ran0  at  least  two  or  three  of  our  people,  and  ascertain  their  views. 


17 

We  should  look  upon  both  requests  in  the  light  of  special  rates;  and  as  it 
was  our  understanding  that  nothing  of  that  character  s-hould  be  made  prior  to 
January  31st  ensuing,  pending  the  anticipated  agreement  between  your  As- 
sociation and  its  Eastern  connections,  we  feel  like  deferring  action  thereon. 

In  regard  to  the  proposed  rate  on  Oranges,  I  may  say  say,  however,  that  it 
is  so  exceedingly  low  that  we  should  not,  in  any  event,  regard  it  favorably. 
We  are  constantly  carrying  Oranges  in  car  lots  to  Missouri  river  points  and 
to  Colorado,  and  for  such  service  receive  42%  cents  per  cwt.  from  Chicago, 
and  34  cents  per  cwt.  from  St.  Louis  to  the  Missouri  River.  Your  proposition 
would  allow  us  only  14  cents;  hence  you  will  see  that  we  have  little  incentive 
to  encourage  it.  I  remember  that  during  the  New  York  meeting,  when  Mr. 
Vilas  complained  of  certain  rates  on  Canned  Goods  which  had  been  forced 
upon  the  Trunk  Lines,  Mr.  Stubbs  made  the  point  that  it  was  a  much  better 
division  than  the  rate  at  which  they  carried  a  good  deal  of  freight.  He  could 
not  apply  s-uch  a  remark  to  us.  There  is  no  business  in  our  Association, 
however  cheap,  on  which  we  receive  anything  like  such  rates  as  those  which 
we  are  asked  to  accept  on  California  business. 

(Signed),  J.  W.  Midglet, 

Commissioner. 

Mr,  Stubbs — Now,  the  answer  to  that  would  be  that  these 
are  east-bound  Oranges,  and  he  carries  no  Oranges  east- 
bound  at  all.  The  Chicago  market  is  supplied  with  Oranges 
shipped  up  from  Florida  via  New  Orleans  and  boat,  which 
the  Pacific  Coast  Association  lines  do  not  share  in  at  all, 
and  that  this  is  just  so  much  new  business  to  them. 

Mr.  Eistixe — I  telegraphed  him  the  day  before  receiving 
that  letter,  urging  him  to  accept  both  rates,  but  he  again 
declined. 

Mr.  Shelby — The  Wabash  signified  to  me  their  willing-  ^8JJJ8io11 
ness  to  participate  in  the  75- cent  rate  on  Iron  Pipe.  S?  n-ou*"1 

Mr.  STUBBS — Cast  Iron  Pipe  for  the  Coast  has  been  almost 
wholly  supplied  by  Simp  kins,  an  agent  here,  who,  I  do  not 
believe,  ever  shipped  a  pound  over  our  route.  Large  quan- 
tities have  come  round  Cape  Horn.  The  fact  is,  all 
the  trade  relations  of  dealers  in  Iron  Pipe  on  this  Coast 
with  Atlantic  Coast  shippers  or  producers,  and 
when  we  made  arrangements  with  the  Shickle,  Harrison 
&  Howard  Iron  Company,  it  was  with  the  idea  that  we 
would  remove  that  business  from  the  Atlantic  Coast  to 
the  St.  Louis  district,  away  from  the  Atlantic  seaboard  and 


Pipe  rates 


18 

liability  of  Cape  Horn  competition — get  it  fixed  there;  and 
while  at  present  we  cannot  get  more  than  perhaps  one  cent 
per  ton  per  mile  for  carrying  it,  there  may  be,  in  the  near 
future,  an  opportunity  to  get  better  rates.  At  any  rate,  it 
would  be  taking  so  much  tonnage  away  from  our  competi- 
tors, and  would  be  bringing  this  traffic  nearer  our  reach. 

Mr.  Shelby — They  can  manufacture  just  as  cheaply  in  St. 
Louis  as  in  New  York. 

5teoutPoef        ^e  Commissioner — How  would  an  Iron  Pipe  rate  out  of 
Memphis.     Memphis  work,  so  as  to  take  care  of  the  Chattanooga  Iron 
Foundry  and  Pipe  Works,  etc.? 

Mr.  Stubbs— I  would  make  a  rate  so  as  to  take  care  of  the 
freight  from  these  western  points.  We  may  only  get  one 
cent  per  ton  per  mile,  but  we  ought  to  foster  the  business. 
The  Chattanooga  men,  you  know,  are  further  off  than  the 
St.  Louis  men.  I  don't  believe  we  could  do  as  well  there, 
owing  to  the  position  of  the  Louisville  and  Nashville  road. 

The  Commissioner— The  Chattanooga  Foundry  and  Pipe 
Works  are  anxious  that  we  put  in  a  rate  from  Memphis  and 
New  Orleans.  They  say  the  arbitraries  from  Chattanooga 
to  New  Orleans  and  Memphis  are  perfectly  satisfactory;  this 
side  is  the  trouble.  If  they  can  get  rate  from  Memphis  and 
New  Orleans  which  would  enable  them  to  handle  their  goods 
into  California,  they  would  be  happy.  This  they  are  very 
anxious  to  do. 

Mr.  Goddard — Suppose  we  say,  if  that  is  satisfactory  to 
them,  that  we  will  make  proportionate  rates  per  miJe  west. 
That  ought  to  be  satisfactory  to  them. 

Discussion  deferred. 

The  Commissioner — I  have  here  pool  statements  of  the 
October  Freight  business.  I  have  not  shown  the  Consoli- 
dated Eeport,  because  I  thought  it  not  best  to  do  so.  None 
of  the  members  have  as  yet  seen  it.  If  it  is  the  unanimous 
desire  of  this  meeting,  I  shall  take  pleasure  in  presenting  it 
for  your  consideration. 


19 

Mr.  Towxe — We  will  listen  to  it  at  half  past-one,  if  you 
will  adjourn  to  that  time. 

Seconded  by  Mr.  Eccles. 

Recess  until  1.30  p.  m. 


Tuesday,  January  13 — Afternoon  Session. 
Meeting  convened  at  2  p.  m. 
All  members  represented. 
The  Commissioner — The  matter  of  presentation  to  the  As-  « 

r  Resume  of 

sociation  of  the  Consolidated  Report  of  Freight  business  JJJJj^jJJ' 

under  the  pool  for  the  month  of  October,  with  statistics  Po°ist»te- 

thereon  was  broached  this  morning  before  we  adjourned,  and 

I  understood  it  to  be  the  consent  of  all  that  we  should  take  it 

up  on  our  assembling  this  afternoon.     I  find,  upon  making 

up  tbis  statement  and  taking  the  actual  tonnage  carried,  that 

it  would  give  an  average  rate  per  100  pounds  of  I1.17J,. 

Mr.  Shelby— From  the  River  to  San  Francisco? 

The  Commissioner — Yes;  that  is,  taking  it  upon  the  actual 
number  of  pounds  carried,  which,  however,  is  not  correct. 
It  is  correct  so  far  as  the  actual  tonnage  carried  is  con- 
cerned, but  the  error  lies  in  the  duplication  of  the  tonnage, 
and  the  allowance  made  by  agreement  of  $4.80  per  ton  to  the 
road  carrying  the  excess  tonnage  for  that  service,  cuts  an 
entirely  different  figure  in  the  distributing  of  the  account. 
Now,  I  find  that  the  Central  Pacific  actually  earned,  on  the 
basis  of  the  percentages  agreed,  $125,803.39. 

Upon  the  request  of  Mr.  Stubbs  the  Commissioner  gave 
the  percentages  of  tonnage  and  revenue  as  to  each  member 
of  the  Association  for  the  month  of  October. 

Mr.  Kimball  asked  for  the  earnings  for  October,  1883. 

The  Commissioner  stated  that  he  could  not  give  a  correct 
and  reliable  statement  of  the   business   for  the  month   In 


20 

question,  as  it  was  impossible,  owing  to  the  late  date  upon 
which  the  Association  was  organized,  to  gather  sufficient 
information  therefor,  and  further,  that  the  business  for 
October,  1883,  could  not  be  regarded  in  a  comparative 
sense,  from  the  fact  that  at  that  time  only  San  Francisco 
and  Portland  were  treated,  while  under  the  present  statement 
all  California  terminals  are  included. 

The  reading  of  the  statement  being  concluded  Mr.  Stubbs 
stated  his  desire  that  a  computation  be  made,  showing  how 
much  the  lines  west  of  Ogden,  Albuquerque,  Deming  and 
El  Paso  had  to  pay  the  lines  east,  which  could  not  be 
regarded  as  competitive  with  the  lines  west  of  those  points. 

Statement  was  placed  in  course  of  preparation. 

An  informal  discussion  followed  the  result  of  the  showing. 

Discussion  Mr.  Stubbs  objected  to  the  including  of  the  Bay  Trans- 
ing s.F.Bay  fer  charges  in  the  settlement  of  the  pool  accounts,  and  said: 
from  pool     If  you  read  the    agreement    literally,   by  an  oversight  of 

mine  it  would  appear  that  we  should  pool  our  local  earnings. 

The  Bay  Transfer  is  not  subject  to  the  pool. 

The  Commissioner,  on  question,  stated  that  the  Omaha 
Bridge  transfer  was  included,  and  that  it  would  be  very 
much  easier  for  the  Commissioner's  Office  if  the  transfers 
were  excluded ;  that  the  divisions  could  be  arrived  at  more 
speedily  than  under  the  present  arrangement. 

Mr.  Goddard — 1  do  not  see  that  it  makes  any  difference 
whether  it  is  pooled  or  excluded.  Each  line  must  contrib- 
ute a  fixed  amount  on  the  business  they  haul.  I  do  not  see 
that  transfer  comes  into  the  question  at  all.  If  $1.00  is  the 
agreed  rate  between  point  and  point,  $1.00  goes  into  the 
pool. 

Mr.  Stubbs — The  difference  is  this:  the  transfer  across 
this  Bay  should  be  deducted  from  the  gross  earnings  of  the 
Central  Pacific  before  showing  that  account,  as  it  is  entirely 
non-competitive  and  local.  The  Bridge  at  Omaha  is  a  por- 
tion of  the  line,  and  just  as  much  competitive  as  any  other 


OP  T»I 

21  i^NlVEBSITi: 

portion  of  the  road.     In  the  case  of  the  transfer  here  there 
is  a  special  allowance  made  for  it. 

Mr.  Shelby — You  might  with  as  much  propriety  exclude 
your  entire  earnings  from  Sacramento. 

Discussion  deferred. 

The  Commissioner— Action  upon  Mr.  Stubbs'  resolution  2^^. 
of  yesterday  was  deferred  until  to-day.     Do  you  now  desire   JJ£n8ton*Mr. 
to  take  it  up  ?    Mr.  Hannaford,  I  would  like  to  hear  from  s 


resolution— 

you  on  the  subject,  as  you  are  more  interested  in  the  first  8eePa«e  12 
clause  of  the  resolution  than  any  one  else. 

Mr.  Shelby — You  must  not  forget  that  the  Oregon  Short 
Line  is  now  completed. 

Mr,  Hannaford — I  have  no  objection  to  the  first  clause, 
which  seems  to  be  the  only  one  that  refers  to  us. 

The  Commissioner — Mr.  Kimball,  have  you  any  sugges- 
tions to  offer  on  the  resolution  laid  over  from  yesterday? 

Mr.  Kimball — I  would  like  to  hear  the  resolution  read 

■m. 

>lution  read.     (See  page  12). 

The  Commissioner— What  do  I  understand  is  meant  by 
the  first  clause  of  the  resolution:  "  Territorial  division  ?'' 
Does  that  embrace  the  terms  upon  which  the  territory  may 
be  apportioned  to  the  northern  lines,  they  remaining  out  of 
California  business? 

Mi    STUBBS— That  waa  my  object,  first  to  determine  a  plan 
of  procedure;  and  next,  to  take  up  the  arrangement,  what- 
r  it  may  be,  as  between  the  northern  lines  on  the  one 
1,  and  the  California  lines  on  the  other  hand. 

Mr.  ElMBALL— Are  you  willing  to  withdraw  the  resolution, 
and  act  upon  the  first  clause? 

-The  object  of  the  resolution  was  simply  to 
determine  a  plau  of  procedure;  that  is,  the  order  in  which 


22 

Mrjestubbs'  we  w^  ^a^e  the  several  subjects  up.  The  important  feature 
Mepige°i27  °^  **  *s  *ne  division  of  the  Pool  as  between  the  roads 
beyond  the  eastern  termini  of  the  Central  Pacific,  the 
Atlantic  &  Pacific  and  the  Southern  Pacific  on  the  one  hand, 
and  the  companies  mentioned  therein  on  the  other  hand,  to 
see  whether,  after  careful  consideration,  it  would  not  be 
decided  by  the  members  that  that  was  the  simplest,  the 
fairest  way  to  settle  the  differences  existing.  I  thought  that, 
under  such  a  plan,  all  concerned  would  be  willing  to  go  to 
arbitration  again,  while,  perhaps,  without  such  a  plan  none 
of  us  would  be  willing  to  go  to  arbitration.  As  to  discuss- 
ing the  first  part  of  the  resolution,  and  settling  that,  I 
understand  Mr.  Oakes  desires  that  the  clause  referred  to  be 
held  over  until  his  arrival,  which  will  be  to-morrow,  but 
that  need  not  interfere  with  the  discussing  as  to  whether 
that  is  the  best  plan  to  proceed  on;  in  other  words,  deter- 
mine whether  we  will  have  one  pool  by  lines,  as  heretofore, 
or  whether  we  will  have  two  pools. 

The  Commissioner — Would  not  that  hinge  somewhat  upon 
the  division  of  territory  between  the  Northern  and  the 
Southern  Lines.     Should  not  that  question  be  settled  first? 

Mr.  Stubbs — Not  necessarily.  The  mere  fact  of  deter- 
mining our  order  of  procedure  does  not  bind  any  one.  If  we 
take  up  and  discuss  the  second  portion  of  the  resolution 
there  is  so  much  time  gained,  then  when  Mr.  Oakes  is  here 
we  go  back  to  the  order  prescribed  by  the  resolution,  and 
take  up  this  question  of  territorial  division  and  see  what 
deal  we  can  make  in  that  direction.  If  we  fail  in  that,  we 
will  not  go  to  No.  2  or  No.  3.  It  seems  to  me  that  has  to 
be  settled  first.  "We  might  carry  it  over.  We  might 
table  this  resolution  if  we  are  not  prepared  to  discuss  it. 
I  do  not  see  ivhy  it  cannot  be  discussed  to-day  as  well  as 
to-morrow;  but  if  we  are  not  prepared  to  discuss  it  we 
might  carry  it  over,  and  when  you  are  ready  to  take  up  any- 
thing it  should  be  this  territorial  division  between  the 
Oregon  Lines  and  the  California  Lines;  settle  that  question 
and  that  determines  the  fact  as  to  what  you  do  afterwards. 


28 

Mr.  Kimball— If  Mr.  Stubbs  will  consent  to  tho  divi- 
sion of  the  resolution  I  will  move  the  adoption  of  the  first 
clause. 

The  Commissioner— Do  you  consent,  Mr.  Stubbs  ? 

Mr.  Stubbs — Certainly. 

Mr.  Hannaford— I  will  second  Mr.  Kimball's  motion  so 
far  as  the  clause  relates  to  territorial  division. 

Mr.  Stubbs — Let  me  suggest  something  right  in  that 
connection.  If  you  move  the  adoption  of  the  first  clause 
and  it  is  carried,  and  you  do  not  take  up  the  second  portion 
of  the  resolution  at  all,  then  you  are  utterly  stopped  from 
going  one  step  further  until  Mr.  Oakes  arrives  and  we 
are  ready  to  discuss  the  terms  of  this  territorial  division. 
Then  suppose  he  arrives,  and  to-morrow  afternoon  is  ready 
to  take  it  up  and  determine  what  that  territorial  division 
shall  be,  that  is,  the  terms  of  the  agreement  as  between  the 
Oregon  Lines  on  the  one  hand  and  the  California  Lines  on 
the  other  hand.  That  might  carry  us  over  until  Thursday 
evening,  then  the  second  part  of  this  resolution — for  I  shall 
certainly  present  it  again  to  get  an  expression  upon  it — will 
be  introduced,  and  we  will  have  to  go  through  just  what 
we  could  go  through  this  afternoon,  if  we  took  it  up  this 
afternoon ;  but  if  there  are  any  here  who  have  not  consid- 
ered the  subject  carefully,  and  honestly  want  time  to 
decide  as  to  whether  it  is  expedient  to  make  that  radical 
ohaoge,  all  right.  I  do  not  wish  to  hurry  it.  It  can 
just  as  well  be  temporarily  tabled  as  not.  I  am  at  home; 
the  matter  is  very  little  to  me  personally  whether  the  pro- 
ceedings here  are  prolonged  or  not,  but  I  presume  that 
some  of  you  feel  like  I  do  when  I  am  East — want  to  get 
through.  That  is  the  only  reason  why  I  presented  the  reso- 
lution at  the  opening  of  this  session. 

The  Commissioner— Mr.  Kimball,  is  there  any  objection 
to  the  territorial  division  as  provided  for  under  tho  present 
oontf 


24 

Mr.  Kimball — There  is  not  only  the  territorial  division  to 
dispose  of,  but  there  is  also  the  terms  and  conditions  upon 
which  that  division  is  made,  upon  which  the  Northern  Lines 
consent  to  stay  out  of  California. 

Mr.  Stubbs— We  take  it  up  where  we  dropped  it  at  Chi- 
cago. It  amounts  to  this:  All  are  agreed  to  make  this  ter- 
ritorial division — to  set  off  to  the  Oregon  Lines  the  territory 
north  of  the  northern  boundary  of  California,  and  to  set 
off  to  the  California  Lines  the  territory  south  of  that;  then 
the  only  question  is  whether  these  Oregon  Lines  will  agree 
to  that  territorial  division  without  some  compensation  other 
than  the  exclusion  of  the  one  from  the  territory  of  the 
other.  That  brings  up  the  subsidy,  if  any  is  paid,  which  is 
where  we  stopped  at  Chicago,  and  which  cannot  be  settled 
until  Mr.  Oakes  arrives.  Therefore  the  discussion  of  the  sec- 
ond part  of  the  resolution  would  not  advance  these  proceed- 
ings a  step,  so  far  as  I  can  see. 

Mr.  Kimball — I  would  like  to  hear  a  pretty  full  discus- 
sion of  the  whole  resolution  as  it  was  first  introduced.  We 
have  not  only  the  territorial  division  and  the  terms  upon 
which  the  territory  may  be-  divided  to  dispose  of,  but  also 
the  question  of  pooling  the  entire  Trans-Continental  busi- 
ness on  the  part  of  the  Southern  Lines,  whether  upon  the 
basis  of  two  pools,  or  whether  upon  the  basis  as  we  are 
now  organized. 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  suppose  I  should  state  its  object,  the  rea- 
sons for  its  introduction.  They  are  simply  these.  I  regard 
the  Oregon  Lines  as  competitors  of  the  Southern  Lines  over 
their  whole  distance —that  is,  the  line  from  St.  Paul  to  Port- 
land or  to  San  Francisco,  if  they  should  come  here,  is  cer- 
tainly a  competitor  of  the  line  from  Omaha  to  San  Fran- 
cisco via  Ogden,  or  of  the  Atlantic  &  Pacific  Line  from 
Kansas  City  via  Mojave.  Therefore  the  contract  as  between 
the  Northern  and  the  Southern  Lines  could  be  made  a  sep- 
arate part  of  the  agreement.  It  is  understood  that  either  of 
these  sets  of  lines  pay  to  the  other  a  consideration  for  keep- 


25 

ing  out  of  the  other's  territory.  Then  the  Commissioner 
could  in  his  accounts  determine  the  gross  earnings  pre- 
cisely as  he  has  done  in  the  past,  and  assess  the  subsidy 
agreed  to  be  paid  on  each  of  the  lines  by  whom  it  should  be 
paid:  that  is  one  transaction  simply,  easily  done.  I  then 
regard  that  practically  there  is  no  competition  between  the 
Union  Pacific  and  the  Southern  Pacific,  as  I  regard  that  there 
is  no  competition  practically  between  the  Atchison  and  the 
Central  Pacific,  or  between  the  Atlantic  &  Pacific  and  the  G. 
H.  <fc  S.  A.  The  competition  is  between  the  Central  Pa- 
cific, the  Atlantic  &  Pacific  and  the  Southern  Pacific — 
the  Southern  Pacific  being  regarded  as  a  portion  of  the 
Atlantic  &  Pacific  Line  for  the  distance  from  Mojave  here. 
Therefore  it  would  seem  natural  that  the  earnings  of  these 
lines  should  be  pooled  as  between  themselves.  There 
should  be  no  agreement  which  might  by  any  chance  or  any 
method  of  apportionment  require  the  Central  Pacific  to 
pay  to  the  Union  Pacific  a  portion  of  its  earnings.  As 
the  Agreement  now  stands  it  might  transpire  that  the 
Atlantic  <fc  Pacific  would  have  to  pay  a  portion  of  its 
earnings  to  the  Atchison,  which,  to  me,  would  be  absurd; 
or  it  might  transpire  that  the  G.  H.  &  S.  A.  would  have  to 
pay  to  the  Central  Pacific.  That,  to  me,  would  be  absurd 
also.     The  competition  is,  therefore,  east  of  Ogden,  Albu- 

[ue,  El  Paso,  etc.,  and  is  as  between  the  G.  H.  &  S.  A., 
the  Texas  &  Pacific,  Atchison,  B.  &  M.,  D.  &  R.  G.  and  U.. 
P.  (That  is  precisely  as  it  was  under  the  first,  or  original 
California  Pool  Agreement),  and  they  should  pool  among 
themselves.  That  much  for  what  I  regard  as  the  principles 
which  should  govern  pool  agreements,  that   a   tine  should 

to  pool  only  with  its  competitor.  Another  consideration, 
is  the  simplicity  of  the  workings  under  the  proposition. 
There  would  be  no  interchange  of  payments,  except^  as 
between  the  lines  practically  competitors  of  each  other.  I 
do  not  know  whether  we  shall  be  able  to  agree  upon  per- 
centages among  ourselves  or  not.  If  past  experience  should 
be  taken  as  an  infallible  guide,  I  should  say  that  we  would 
not  be  able  to  agree.      At  the  same  time,  I  think  that  there 


26 

\yould  be  better  results  if  we  would  each  honestly  try  to 
make  au  agreement  among  ourselves  than  go  before  an 
arbitrator,  because  there  is  scarcely  one  of  us  who  could 
find  or  suggest  a  man  to  arbitrate  this  question  who  is 
familiar  enough  with  it  to  do  it  intelligently,  unless  he  has 
been  at  some  time  or  other  more  or  less  connected  or  inter- 
ested in  one  or  other  members  of  the  Association.  And  we 
are  all  human,  and  that  would  naturally  create  a  bias  in  the 
minds  of  the  competitors  of  the  line  with  which  the  pro- 
posed arbitrator  was  connected.  But  suppose  we  should 
agree  upon  an  arbitrator;  we  have  already  had  experience 
enough  to  know  that  for  such  a  referee  to  take  up 
the  question,  and  apportion  the  earnings  by  lines,  would 
be  a  very  difficult  question.  We  tried  once  at  Chicago. 
I  think  I  was  on  the  committee  on  the  formulation  of  the 
agreement,  and  I  wrote  out  a  resolution  which  indicated  the 
lines,  the  connections  which  should  be  regarded  as  lines, 
roads  forming  through  lines,  or  the  roads  connecting  with 
each  other,  which  should  be  taken  by  the  arbitrator  as 
through  lines  in  allotting  his  award,  the  award  to  each  line 
to  be  subdivided  between  the  roads  in  accordance  with  the 
regular  percentages  which  they  use  in  billing  freight  or 
ticketing  passengers.  That  resolution  came  up  for  discus- 
sion in  open  meeting,  and  at  once  each  party  tried  to  make  a 
line,  and  we  saw  at  once  that  we  were  going  to  have  seventy- 
five  different  lines.  The  B.  &  M.,  wanted  a  line  via  Pueblo 
and  the  D.  &  R.  G.;  also  via  the  U.  P.  and  Cheyenne;  also 
via  the  Atchison  and  The  Needles,  also  via  the  Atchison  & 
Deming.  The  Union  Pacific  wanted  a  line  via  the  Oregon 
Short  Line  via  Pocatello  and  Garrison,  etc.  It  was  clearly 
the  intent,  however,  if  you  will  refer  to  the  agreement,  that 
the  apportionments  referred  to  Mr.  Tucker,  should  be 
made  by  lines,  and  I  think  you  will  find  what  might  be 
regarded  practically  as  instructions  to  him  that  he  should 
so  make  the  award.  But  I  learn  that  after  careful  con- 
sideration, I  think  it  was  in  his  report  of  his  award  to  the 
Association — that  he  had  given  it  very  careful  consideration, 
but  he  did  not  see  how  he  could  make  his  allotment  by  lines. 


27 

Therefore  he  had  undertaken  it  as  he  did,  and  I  think  many 
of  us  consider  that  he  erred — that  it  was  a  trap  which  snared 
his  judgment  in  the  matter — all  believing,  however,  that  he 
was  honest  and  conscientious,  an  eminently  capable  man 
under  the  circumstances  to  do  the  work,  and  I  do  not  think 
we  could  find  any  better  man  to  arbitrate  this  question  than 
Mr.  Tucker,  nor  a  man  who  had  as  little  knowledge  of  the 
intricacies  of  the  business,  and  who  would  do  so  well  as  Mr. 
Tucker  has  done.  If  we  make  these  two  pools  as  proposed, 
all  that  trouble  is  eliminated.  He  could  make  his  award 
without  much  regard  to  lines,  and  I  think  reach  a  conclu- 
sion which  would  be  satisfactory  to  most  of  us. 

Mr.  Kimball — Let  me  interrupt  you  a  moment.  I  do  not 
see  how  that  division  between  the  eastern  and  western  ter- 
ritory, on  the  basis  of  two  pools,  eliminates  that  question 
at  all.  The  same  side  tracks,  which  we  all  were  so  anxious 
to  get  in  before,  exist  to-day,  and  they  are  east  of  the  junc- 
tion points.  Now,  when  we  get  together  to  determine  among 
ourselves,  as  the  lines  east  of  those  junction  points,  do  we 
not  have  to  grapple  with  the  same  question  ? 

Mr.  Stubbs — There  is  something  in  what  you  say,  Mr. 
Kimball.  Of  course,  the  division  as  proposed  by  the  reso- 
lution would  not  forbid  the  B.  &  M.  making  the  same  claim 
as  I  have  indicated,  for  the  purpose  of  illustration,  but 
there  is  this  about  it,  that  in  determining  the  Central  Pa- 
cific's proportion  it  would  not  be  confused  or  confounded 
with  that  question  at  all.  There  is  that  much  of  it  lifted  out, 
that  in  determining  the  proportion  of  the  Atlantic  &  Pacific 
it  would  not  be  confused  or  confounded  with  the  question 
of  the  allotments  to  the  eastern  pool;  and  so  with  the  South- 
ern Pacific.  I  do  not  say  that  it  is  absolutely  perfect.  I  do 
not  say  that  we  could  formulate  any  plan  of  procedure  or 
give  any  instructions  to  an  arbitrator  which  are  going  to 
relieve  him  of  a  good  deal  of  labor,  or  of  the  exercising  of 
very  careful  judgment  in  order  to  satisfy,  even  if  he  could; 
but  it  certainly  is  a  long  step  towards  simplifying  the  mat- 
ter.     These  are  the  considerations,  so  far  as  I  am  able  to 


Discussion 
as  to  both 
pools  being 
subject  to 
one  Com- 
missioner 
and  under 
same  rules 
and  regula- 
tions. 


express  them  to  you,  that  influenced  me  in  presenting  this 
resolution.  There  is  another  reason  that  I  might  illustrate 
to  you.  We  have  to  have  a  pool — we  already  have  a  pool 
between  the  Atlantic  &  Pacific  and  Southern  Pacific  Com- 
panies, which  embraces  a  little  more  business  than  is  in- 
cluded in  this  Association,  that  we  do  not  regard  as  a  per- 
fect instrument,  but  wre  always  have  to  have  such  an 
agreement,  and  there  is  no  need  of  having  the  two.  That  Pool 
Agreement  is  part  of  our  general  agreement  under  which 
the  sale  was  made;  they  have  their  rights  into  California;  so 
there  is  nothing  we  can  do  here — 

Mr.  Goddard— I  would  like  to  ask  whether  it  was  your 
idea,  in  offering  that  resolution,  that  all  matters  pertaining 
to  both  pools  should  be  subject  to  the  one  Association,  the 
only  separation  being  the  fixing  up  of  your  own  affairs  so  far 
as  percentages  are  concerned  ? 

Mr.  Stubbs — My  idea  was,  that  both  sets  of  pools  would 
be  formed  under  the  name  of  the  Trans-Continental  Associ- 
ation, under  the  control  of  the  Commissioner  of  the  Trans- 
Continental  Association,  who  wou'd  audit  the  accounts  and 
make  the  settlements  precisely  as  he  does  now;  that  the  two 
pools  should  be  co-existent  and  inter-dependent.  Of  course, 
if  the  pool  between  the  lines  East  should  fail,  I  do  not  see 
how  it  could  be  otherwise  than  that  the  pool  West  should 
fail,  unless  by  subsequent  agreement  the  lines  interested  in 
the  Western  Pool  should  agree  to  maintain  an  unbroken 
front  to  all  their  connections. 

Mr.  Kistine — WTould  the  same  rules  regarding  rate-making 
power,  etc.,  established  under  the  Trans-Continental  Asso- 
ciation, obtain,  or  be  provided  for  separately  under  the  two 
pools? 

Mr.  Stubbs — My  idea  is,  that  the  Trans-Continental  Agree- 
ment should  cover  both,  the  only  difference  being  the 
division  of  the  Western  from  the  Eastern  pool  in  the  matter 
of  revenue  for  the  convenience  of  the  Association. 


29 

Mr.  Ristine— Two  sets  of  perceutages,  instead  of  one,  as 
at  present.  Everything  else  you  would  expect  to  be  covered 
by  the  Trans-Continental  Association  ? 

Mr.  Stubbs — Yes.  Trans-Continental  force;  Trans-Con- 
tinental rules  and  Agreement  to  cover  everything,  that  was 
what  I  had  contemplated. 

Mr.  Ristine— I  did  not  know  but  that  you  intended  to 
make  two  separate  pools;  two  separate  sets  of  rules  and 
regulations;  two  separate  agreements. 

Mr.  StUBBS — I  cannot  see  why  it  should  be  necessary  to 
take  it  out  of  the  jurisdiction  of  the  Association  at  all. 

The  Commissioner— Mr.  Stubbs,  I  would  like  to  ask  if  the 
proposed  pool  between  the  Central  Pacific,  Southern  Pacific 
and  Atlantic  &  Pacific  Companies  would  be  merely  of  the 
proportions  of  their  through  business,  or  the  business  now 
pooled,  or  would  it  be  of  a  stipulated  amount  from  certain 
points? 

Mr.  Stubbs — It  would  be  under  the  Trans-Continental 
Association;  the  pool  between  them  would  be  simply  of  that 
business  covered  by  the  present  Association,  passing  the 
ninety-seventh  meridian. 

The  Commissioner— Then  it  would  be  simply  a  pool  of 
their  earnings  on  that  portion  of  the  business. 

Mr.  Stubbs — ■ Yes,  that  is  all.  I  think  it  would  render  it 
much  easier  for  you  gentlemen  to  settle  among  yourselves, 
and  tri  It  certainly  simplifies  the  matter,  and  guar- 

antees more  permanence  to  our  agreement. 

Mr.  MILLER  asked  as  to  the  handliug  of  "diversions" 
DDder  the  proposed  arrangement. 

Mr.  8  <ould  be  made  precisely  as  they  are 

now. 

Mr.  Miller—- I  don't  see  how  you  could  fix  it. 


30 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  don't  see  why  diversions  cannot  be  regu- 
lated. I  don't  think  any  greater  difficulties  would  be  en- 
countered than  now  exist. 

Mr.  Eustis— Your  suggestion  would  practically  give  you 
46  per  cent,  via  Ogden. 

Mr.  Stubbs — No;  I  would  like  to  have  it  that  way.  For 
example,  suppose  the  Central  Pacific,  the  Atlantic  &  Pacific 
and  the  Southern  Pacific  were  in  a  pool,  each  taking' one- 
third,  and  the  B.  &  M.,  D.  &  E.  G.  and  U.  P.  should  of  this 
Trans-Continental  business  deliver  one-half  or  three-fifths  to 
the  Central  Pacific,  then  the  difference  between  the  three- 
fifths  and  one-third  would  have  to  be  paid  over  to  the  Atlantic 
.&  Pacific,  if  it  was  behind,  or  to  the  Southern  Pacific. 

Mr.  Eustis— I  do  not  see  how  the  connections  east  of 
Ogden  could  consent  to  any  pool  that  gave  the  Central  Pa- 
cific less  than  46  per  cent,  of  the  earnings  via  Ogden;  that 
is,  I  do  not  see  how  the  lines  east  of  Ogden,  if  they  are 
capable  of  carrying  two-thirds  of  the  business,  could  con- 
sent to  any  agreement  on  the  part  of  the  Atlantic  &  Pa- 
cific and  Southern  Pacific  as  against  the  Central  Pacific, 
whereby  they  would  carry  two-thirds  of  the  business  by  the 
Southern  Lines. 

Mr.  Stubbs  Still  you  would  have  no  objection  if  you  de- 
livered to  the  Central  Pacific  three-fifths  and  you  got  your 
proportion  of  it,  if  there  was  no  provision  that  diversion 
should  be  made. 

Mr.  Eustis — Then  it  comes  down  to  this:  If  you  had 
such  an  agreement  as  that,  it  would  be  a  mere  matter  of  ac- 
counting between  the  Central  Pacific,  the  Southern  Pacific 
and  the  Atlantic  and  Pacific  Companies;  it  would  not  be  a 
matter  between  the  Eastern  Lines  at  all.  Why  should  that 
phase  of  it  be  brought  into  the  question  at  all? 

Mr.  Stubbs — Just  as  have  stated  to  you,  that  under  the 
present  contract  it  is  possible,  and  I  do  not  think  it  at  all  im- 
probable, if  we  should  adopt  these  freight  percentages  which 


31 

Mr.  Tucker  has  awarded,  that  in  the  accounting  the  Central 
Pacific  would  have  to  pa}*  money  to  the  Union  Pacific.  If 
there  is  anything  but  palpable  absurdity  in  any  such  an  ap- 
portionment, I  would  like  to  have  it  explained.  I  do  not 
think  it  improbable  that  the  G.  H.  <fe  S.  A.,  might  have  to 
pay  to  the  Atlantic  <fc  Pacific. 

Mr.  Ecstis— I  admit  that;  but  why  is  not  that  easily  rem- 
edied, and  why  is  it  not  practically  remedied  by  that  clause 
of  the  original  agreement  which  you  have  referred  to,  that 
says  that  the  apportionment  shall  be  made  by  lines  ? 

Mr.  Stubbs— This  resolution  is  introduced  to  propose  a 
plan  of  procedure  for  simplifying  these  matters.  It  is  the 
best,  so  far,  I  have  been  able  to  suggest.  I  am  not  wedded 
to  that  plan  of  procedure.  The  proposition  that  is  going  to 
answer  the  best,  that  is  going  to  meet  the  case  the  nearest 
and  the  fairest,  is  the  one  I  want  adopted.  This  one  is  intro- 
duced merely  for  your  consideration,  not  that  it  may  be  the 
best  that  might  be  made,  but  for  you  to  see  whether  it  does 
not  promise  something.  This  resolution  may  have  the 
effect  of  suggesting  to  the  minds  of  the  representatives  here 
a  better  plan  than  that  proposed,  in  which  case  I  should 
like  to  have  the  pleasure  of  voting  for  it;  but  I  did  not  think 
that  a  suggestion  or  a  thought  would  be  started  in  the 
minds  of  the  representatives  here  without  some  proposition 
they  could  talk  to. 

Mr.  I  —It  seems  to  me  that  so  far  as  you  can  fix  it, 

whether  by  one,  two  or  five  pools,  that  it  probably  could  be 
fixed  as  well  by  the  plan  you  named  in  Chicago,  or  rather 
the  agreei  iched  at  Omaha,  the  clause  reading:  "The 

Subdivision  of  the  contributions  to  the  joint  purse  between 
the  several  companies  formiflg  a  line  shall  be  on  the  basis 
of  freight  percentages  in  use  between  said  companies." 
Passenger  business  being  covered  in  a  similar  manner.  Now, 
while  these  lines  are  not  defined,  each  company  will  claim  a 
dozen,  natural  or  unnatural;  the  same  complications  will 
exist.    It  does  not  mat  i  •  are  one  or  two  pools, 

the  same  complications  present  themselves. 


32 

Mr.  Stubbs— The  trouble  is  this,  that  you  would  not  be 
able  to  determine  what  the  western  connection  of  any  set 
of  lines  is  entitled  to;  for  example,  in  figuring  over  and  test- 
ing Arbitrator  Tucker's  award,  I  note  that  the  B.  &  M.  re- 
ceives more  on  Passenger  than  the  D.  &  R.  G.  If  I  remem- 
ber it,  more  on  Freight  and  less  on  Passenger.  Now,  for  the 
purpose  of  showing  or  exhibiting,  I  made  what  I  regard  a 
conclusive  showing  of  the  unfairness  of  the  award.  I  held 
that  the  B.  &  M.  should  be  regarded  as  the  connection  of 
the  D.  &  R,  G..  or  that  the  D.  &  B.  G.  should  be  regarded 
as  the  sole  connection  of  the  B.  &  M.  on  percentages,  and 
made  my  showing  in  that  way.  The  excess  on  Freight  I  had 
to  dispose  of  in  some  way,  so  regarded  that  it  would  deliver, 
or  that  the  excess  was  given  to  it  on  account  of  its  line  via 
Cheyenne.  Mr.  Goddard  informs  me,  and  I  have  no  doubt 
it  is  true,  that  the  Atchison  delivered  freight  and  passengers 
to  the  D.  &  R.  G.  at  Pueblo,  and  that  question  of  "  lines" 
is  raised  by  that  very  proposition,  and  it  would  be  very 
hard  to  determine.  I  think  it  would  be  impossible  to 
determine  unless  we  should  sit  down  here  and  arbitrarily 
agree  that  there  shall  be  certain  lines.  If  we  can  agree 
among  ourselves  that  the  Union  Pacific  and  Central  Pa- 
cific shall  constitute  one  line,  and  that  the  Union  Pacific 
shall  not  be  credited  with  any  business  that  it  may  de- 
liver to  the  D.  &  R.  G.  at  Denver,  that  would  dispose 
of  the  question  so  far  as  it  goes,  but  will  the  Union  Pacific 
agree  to  that  ?  Shall  we  regard  the  B.  &.  M.  as  the  sole 
connection  of  the  D.  &  R.  G.,  and  vice  versa,  and  the  Atchi- 
son of  the  Atlantic  &  Pacific?  Now,  that  is  something  I 
would  not  like  to  agree  to;  while  I  know  that  it  is  practically 
so,  yet,  at  the  same  time,  the  Atchison  is  a  connection  of  the 
Southern  Pacific  at  Deming,  and  more  or  less  business  will 
go  that  way.  It  will  be  considerably  less,  but  some  will  go 
that  way. 

Mr.  Eustis — What  I  fail  to  see  is,  how  it  will  eliminate 
these  complications. 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  say  we  eliminate  them  so  far  as  the  western 
end  is  concerned,  leaving  the  other  for  yourselves  to  settle. 


33 

Mr,  ErsTis— You  cannot  settle  it  any  quicker  than  by 
settling  it  as  a  whole. 

Mr.  Stubbs—  The  point  is  this:  the  settlement  is  made  as 
between  these  Western  lines,  regardless  of  any  settlements 
that  are  made  east.  The  Central  Pacific  is  not  concerned 
in  what  the  U.  P.  gets,  in  what  the  B.  &  M.  gets,  or  in  what 
the  D.  &  R.  G.  gets.  The  Atlantic  &  Pacific  is  not  con- 
cerned ib  what  the  Atchison  gets,  etc.  Now,  certainly  there  is 
that  much  of  simplicity  in  its  application,  because  at  present 
these  lines  are  concerned,  aud  directly  concerned,  in  what 
their  connections  get;  but  to  say  that  this  question  of  lines  is 
altogether  eliminated  by  this  proposition  is  something  I 
cannot,  and  I  have  not  stated;  but  it  is  certainly  one  step 
towards  reducing  the  complications.  I  do  not  know  how  it 
would  turn  out,  but  I  think  the  Central  Pacific,  the  Atlantic 
a  Pacific  and  the  Southern  Pacific  could  easily  agree  among 
themselves,  and  that  the  only  question  for  arbitration  would 
be  as  to  the  east  thereof.  You  may  be  able  to  give  some 
better  plan,  but  I  have  not  seen,  as  yet,  where  there  could 
be  any  improvement  made.  I  do  not  think  we  could  sit 
here  a  week  aud  settle  on  an  arbitrary  set  of  lines. 

Informal  discussion  upon  the  proposition. 

The  Commissioner — How   would   you    average   Southern  Discussion 
P^lcific  percentages  on  California  business?  r8  average 

perceutage. 

Mr.  STUBB8  —That  U  not  a  difficult  matter.  In  the  event 
of  your  determining  the  lines,  it  would  be  an  easy  matter. 

Tli.-  0OMMI88IONBB— I  am  speaking  of  it  as  it  exists  at  the 
Bent  time.     Have  you  ever  figured  what  the  average  per- 
Skrathern  Pacific  is  ? 

Mr,  8     BBS—  You  must  have  a  beginning  point.     I  have 

Brmioed  it  to  my  satisfaction,  taking  Mr.  Tucker's  award 

to  the  lines  east  as  correct.     If  you  want  to  go  on  the  basis 

of  Mr.  Tucker's  award,  the  only  way  would   be  to  take  his 

award  to  the  Atlantic  &  Pacific  for  example,  and  see  if  that 

I  tlautic  &  Pacific's  freight  percentage;  then  as 


34 


Resnme  of 

October 

Freight 

Pool 

Statement. 


18  per  cent,  is  to  the  proportion  of  the  Atlantic  <fe  Pacific,  so 
the  Southern  Pacific  should  be  to  the  Atlantic  &  Pacific's 
award.  That  settles  that  question.  Then  you  take  the 
Texas  &  Pacific  award.  Now,  as  the  Southern  Pacific 
percentage  is  to  the  Texas  &  Pacific  percentage,  so  the  S. 
P.  proportion  on  account  of  T.  &  P.  should  be  to  the  award 
of  the  T.  &  P.  I  have  it  figured  out  if  you  would  like  to 
see  it. 


The  Commissioner— I  would  like  to  see  it. 

Mr.  Stubbs— That  goes  on  the  principle  that  Mr.  Tucker 
is  right  in  his  award  to  the  Eastern  Lines.  That  of  course 
would  not  be  acceptable  to  some  of  the  Eastern  Lines.  The 
Union  Pacific,  for  instance,  will  not  admit  that  they  have 
been  properly  treated. 

The  balance  of  the  afternoon  was  spent  in  informal  dis- 
cussion and  computations  in  connection  with  the  results  to 
be  obtained  by  the  exclusion  of  all  western  territory  non- 
competitive with  the  lines  composing  the  proposed  Eastern 
pool,  but  argument  upon  the  subject  not  being  exhausted, 
it  was  again  deferred  until  the  following  morning. 

Adjourned  until  10  a.  m.  to-morrow. 


Wednesday,  January  \Uh— Morning  Session, 

Meeting  convened  at  10.30  a.  m. 

All  members  represented. 

The  Commissioner— I  have  a  matter  here  which  I  desire 
to  bring  to  your  notice.  I  presented  some  figures  yesterday 
on  October  business,  but  late  last  evening  I  discovered  that 
these  figures  were  not  exactly  correct,  from  the  fact  that 
the  Agreement  was  made  up  on  the  basis  of  lines,  whereas 
the  percentages  awarded  by  Mr.  Tucker  are  by  roads.  I 
took  it  that  the  $4.80  per  ton  which  was  allowed  on  excess 
carried,  as  meaning  for  each  road.  I  find  now  that  it  was 
meant  as  applying  to  the  line,  and  hence  I  have  given  you 


35 

too  much  credit  by  your  proportion  of  percentage  in  each 
route.  There  were  others  under  the  same  impression.  I 
talked  with  several  upon  the  subject,  and  they  each  had  the 
same  idea,  that  it  was  $4.80  per  ton  to  each  road,  but  upon 
a  careful  reading  of  the  agreement  I  discovered  that  it  should 
be  interpreted  as  $4.80  to  each  line.  Upon  this  basis  the 
statement  is  chauged  somewhat. 

Mr.  Kimball — $4.80  per  ton  from  the  eastern  boundary 
of  Trans-Continental  territory  to  the  point  of  delivery. 

The  Commissioner  presented  an  approximate  statement  so 
far  as  the  Southern  Pacific's  interest  was  concerned.  It  was 
decided,  however,  to  figure  the  several  connections  of  that 
line  separately,  as  the  percentage  might  appear,  thereby 
obtaining  an  actual  showing  of  the  amount  to  pay  over  by 
the  Southern  Pacific  to  the  several  lines  in  interest. 

After  an  extended  informal  discussion,  recess  was  taken 
until  2  p.  m. 


Wednesday,  January  \kth — Afternoon  Session. 

M     ting  convened  at  3  p.  m. 

All  members  represented. 

The  Commissioner — The  figures  given  you  this  morning 
upon  Southern  Pacific  business  were  approximate.  We 
have  now  figured  each  line  separately,  and  find  that  the 
amount  payable  from  all  roads  over  is  $63,873.77— an  in- 
of  some  $5,000 — showing  the  amount  payable  by  the 
Union  Pacific  to  be  $6,123.35,  which  is  not  changed  from  the 
farmer  showing.  The  Southern  Pacific,  however,  changes 
from  $32,657.00  to  138,372.68.  The  G.  H.  &  S.  A.  pays 
over  $9,144.64,  the  IV  - 10,233.10,  making  to- 

tal of  $63,873.77. 

After  some  slight  discussion,  the  Commissioner  suggested  Jmrni*. 
that  as  that  matter  had  been  temporarily  disposed  of,  other  ,u,: 
business  was  in  order,  and  called  attention  to  the  fact  that  stuN* 

........  .ti<-n 

-Mi    stuhbs    resolution,   upon  winch  action  had  not  as  yet  «e«p«gei^ 
i  taken,  was  the  next  subject  for  debate. 


his  com- 
pany. 


36 
Mr.  Goddard  offered  amendment  as  follows : 

It  being  the  intent  of  this  resolution  that  each  of  the  pools  shall  be  gov- 
erned in  all  respects  by  the  Trans-Continental  Association,  and  that  the  only 
change  proposed  from  the  past  agreement  consists  in  the  separation  of  per- 
centages in  the  pool  into  two  divisions,  one  east  of  Ogden,  Albuquerque, 
Deming  and  El  Paso,  and  the  other  west  of  those  points. 

Mr.  God-  Accepted  by  Mr.  Stubbs,   and  included  iu  the  original 

amendment   resolution.     (See  page  12). 

accepted. 

The  Commissioner— I  have  a  letter  from  Mr.  Olds,  which 
I  will  read  for  the  information  of  the  members. 

St.  Louis,  Dec.  29,  1884. 
"Geo.  W.  Ristlne,  Esq.,  Commissioner,  San  Francisco. 
Mr.  Olds'  Dear  Sir, — In  connection  with  the  meeting  to  be  held  at  San  Francisco 

letter  ex-        January  12th  ensuing,  I  deem  it  advisable  to  inform  you  that  it  is  not  probable 
position  of     we  shall  be  represented  at  such  meeting.     It  has  become  a  serious  question 
with  our  Company  whether  our  interest  in  the  Trans-Continental  Association 
is  of  sufficient  magnitude  to  justify  us  in  wasting  time  and  money  in  attending 
the  different  meetings. 

As  we  shall  not  be  represented  at  the  meeting,  it  may  be  proper  for  me  to 
indicate  to  you  our  position.  I  will,  therefore,  say  that  if  the  Association  is 
reorganized  on  a  satisfactory  basis,  and  continued  on  and  after  February  1st, 
we  shall  not  endanger  its  existence  by  remaining  outside  of  the  Association, 
provided,  of  course,  that  the  organization  is  satisfactory  to  us,  and  a  Com 
missioner,  also  satisfactory  to  us,  will  be  placed  in  charge  of  the  affairs. 
Another  object  in  my  writing  you  this,  is  to  indicate  to  the  representatives  of 
the  other  lines  that  because  of  our  absence  from  the  meeting  it  will  not 
necessarily  follow  that  we  shall  not  become  a  member  of  any  organization  that 
is  formed,  and  that  they  need  not  on  account  of  our  absence  delay  the  re- 
organization of  the  Association. 

(Signed)  Geo.  Olds." 

Mr.  Stubbs— T  have  a  later  communication  from  the 
General  Traffic  Manager  of  the  Texas  &  Pacific,  which  I 
beg  leave  to  present  to  you  for  the  information  of  the 
Association. 

The  Commissioner  read  the  telegram,  as  folloAvs: 

January  13,  1885, 
"J.  C.  Stubbs,  San  Francisco. 
fronfral&  P.  We  wish  it  understood  that  we  cannot  become  a  member  of  the  Trans- 
Rywith-  Continental  Association  unless  all  lines  west  of  the  Mississippi  Eiver,  over 
their  mem-  which  California  traffic  can  be  handled,  also  become  members.  This  neces- 
Sother"1"  sarilv  includes  the  St.  Louis  &  San  Francisco  and  Sunset  Line  from  New 
lines  join.       Orleans  west. 

(Signed)  Geo.  Olds." 


37 

Mr.  Towne—  Since  Mr.  Olds  says  in  his  letter  that  he  will 
not  become  an  obstructionist,  I  think  you  have  nothing  to 
fear  from  that  quarter. 

The  resolution  was  here  submittrd  to  vote,   resulting  in  Mr  stubbs. 
its  unanimous  adoption.  SSXt. 

ly  adopted— 

Mr.  Stubbs — Unless  we  have  some  intimation  that  Mr.  anedp3a6f8 12 
Oakes  will  be  present  this  afternoon,  I  think  we  might  as 
well  adjourn  until  to-morrow. 

Mr.  Prescott— I  think  it  very  doubtful  if  Mr.  Oakes  gets 
round. 

Complaints   having   been  informally  made  by  several  of  Delay  in  in- 
the  members  in  regard  to  the  delay  which  it  was  claimed  bound  cias- 
occurred  in  the  issuance  of  the  new  West-bound  Classifica-  and  Tariff 
tion  and  Tariff  of  January  1,  1885,  Mr.  Kistine  asked  per-  plained, 
mission  to  read  the  correspondence  relating  to  its  issuance, 
which  was  accorded.    It  was  shown  that  considerable  delay 
occurred    in    the    San    Francisco   Post   Office,    the  entire 
issue  having  been  made  by  the   Commissioner's  office  on 
Deeember  31,  1884. 

Mr.  Gray  corroborated  the  various  incidents  related  by 
Mr.  Ristine  in  reference  to  its  distribution. 

Upon  motion  of  Mr.  Hannaford,  seconded  by  Mr. 
ToWNE,  an  adjournment  was  taken  until  10  a.  m.  to-morrow. 


Thursday,  January  15th — Morning  Session. 

ting  convened  at  10.30  a.  m. 

All  members  represented. 

The  Commissioner — I  have  a  message  this  morning  from   i,i 
Mr.  Guilford,  Assistant  Commissioner,  New  York,  in  answer  5!„ 
to  a  communication  from  this  Association,    dated  January  llpiJu/rttS 
7th,  relative  to  the  Oil  rates  to  apply  this  year,  account  of  <,n011' 
the  Standard  and  Continental  Oil  Companies,  reading  as 
follows : 


38 

New  York,  Jan.  14. 
L.  G.  Cannon,  S.   F.  : 

Your  letter  seventh.  As  Trunk  Line  Committee  has  declined  to  be  party 
to  any  special  contracts  during  present  year,  we  cannot  approve  proposed 
special  contract  with  Standard  and  Continental  Oil  Companies.  All  traffic 
should  pay  the  established  rates  and  classifications. 

(Signed),  N.  Guilford. 


Son  ofwLe       Mr-  Shelby  asked  for  classification  of  Wine,  in  wood,  west- 

in  wooc 
■west- 
bound. 


£e™od       bound. 


It  was  agreed  : 

Wine  in  wood,  same  as  Liquors  in  wood. 

Mr.  Ristine  suggested  that  the  following  telegram  be  for- 
warded to  Mr.  Guilford. 

Suggested  "Your  telegram  fourteenth.     Our  classification  does  not  provide  for  Oil  in 

be^forward-    tan^  cars'  an(^  ^e  rate  suggeste(l  nas  Deen  *n  force  several  years.     We  name 

ed  Trunk        Standard  and  Continental  Companies,  as  it  is  necessary  to  give  gauge  of  the 

count  spe-      cars»  an(*  tney  are  tne  on^J  parties  using  such  cars  in  Californ:a  trade.     It  is 

cialrateson    therefore  not,  properly  speaking,  a  special  rate.     Unless  we  can  make  them 

an  approximate  rate  on  Case  Oil,  the  business  will  all  take  Cape  Horn  route . 

The  Trans-Continental  Association,  now  in  session,   respectfully  ask  your 

approval  of  these  rates,  which  they  consider  very  important." 

sunset's  po-  Mr.  Stubbs — Keferring  to  the  Oil  rates,  Mr.  Commis- 
gaSs  rateT  sioner,  we  want,  so  far  as  the  Sunset  is  concerned,  to  make 
Atlantic        the   same   rates   from   seaboard   points  as  are  made    from 

»ea- board.         ~,  ,         -, 

Cleveland. 

Mr.  Eistine — Why? 

Mr.  Stubbs— To  give  us  an  opportunity  to  take  a  share  of 
that  oil.  There  is  a  reason  for  it  that  ought  to  be  regarded 
of  sufficient  importance  to  secure  the  approval  of  the  other 
lines,  who  naturally  would  not  care  to  have  the  Sunset  carry 
any,  and  that  is  that  a  large  portion  of  the  oil  that  comes 
here  from  the  Atlantic  Coast  is  of  the  lowest  grade,  and  is 
made  at  Chester,  Pa.,  and  is  controlled  by  the  Lombard 
and  Ayres  Co.  of  New  York,  which  is  independent  entirely  of 
the  Standard  Oil  Company;  and  I  am  satisfied  that  unless 
we  do  provide  that  oil  can  be  taken  from  the  refineries  on 
the  Atlantic  Coast,  or  some  portion  of  it,  at  the  same  rat^s 
as  from  Cleveland,  that  that  oil  will  go  round  Cape  Honiv 


39 

Mr.  Ristine — The  reason  I  asked  you  the  question  was 
that  I  understood  that  the  Continental  Company  have  a 
refinery  at  Buffalo. 

Mr.  Stubbs — They  have  not.  They  did  have,  but  that  is 
all  changed. 

Mr.  RlSTTNE — I  was  told  they  did  have  as  late  as  the  day 
before  yesterday,  and  that  they  were  shipping  all  their  oil 
from  Buffalo  instead  of  Chester.  If  that  is  true,  there  is  a 
reason  for  making  the  rate  from  New  York  a  trifle  higher. 

Mr.  Stubbs  claimed  that  his  information  came  direct  from 
the  Continental  Oil  Company,  and  explained  the  position  as 
between  the  several  oil  companies  and  the  necessity  for  pro- 
tecting the  Atlantic  Coast  oil  business. 

Mr.  Ristine — You  probably  misunderstood.  The  rates 
ruling  this  year  are  the  same  as  existed  last  year. 

Mr.  Stubbs — That  is  true,  but  they  are  half  a  cent  per 
gallon  higher.  It  seems  to  me  that  the  Trunk  Lines  are 
I  ving  this  thing  a  little  too  far.  They  say  they  will  not 
go  into  any  special  contracts.  We  have  practically  adapted 
ourselves  to  their  views,  and  agreed  that  we  will  not  make 
any  special  contracts;  but  when  the  Trunk  Lines,  the  Iowa 
Lines,  or  any  set  of  men,  say  there  will  be  no  special  rates 
on  this  California  business,  and  assume  the  position  that  we 
can  make  a  tariff  and  stick  to  that  tariff  arbitrarily  the  whole 
year  through  without  any  modification  whatever,  they  take 
a  position  they  cannot  sustain.  They  are  trying  to  enforce 
ami  to  preach  that  which  they  do  not  practice  on  their  own 
business,  ;tnd  it  is  not  done,  to  my  mind,  with  any  just  regard 
for  the  business  or  for  any  fair  purpose  towards  us,  and  if 
they  are  going  to  assume  that  position  we  had  better  take 
care  of  ourselves. 

Mr.  EtonHB— How  would  it  do,  Mr.  Stubbs,  for  the  T.  C  an«Re8tiUl? 

that  n  com* 

A.  to  appoint  a  Committee  to  see  tho  Trunk   Lino  people?  " 

It  has  never  been  discussed  with  them  as  a  Trans-Continen-  «••■"•<  tn.- 

tal  matter  since  your  interview.     It  would  only  be  following  '■■ 


40 

up  and  sustaining  your  argument  in  favor  of  special  con- 
tracts, and  certainly  would  not  do  any  harm. 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  think  our  interest  would  vote  for  a  com- 
mittee to  interview  them,  if  that  was  thought  necessary,  but 
we  have  been  interviewing  them,  and  my  experience  has 
been,  since  last  December,  that  we  have  gone  just  as  far  as 
we  can  afford  towards  meeting  their  views.  Instead  of  ac- 
cepting the  concession  which  we  made  to  their  views  and 
meeting  us  in  a  proper  spirit,  and  all  will  admit  that  it  was 
with  deference  to  these  Eastern  Lines  that  we  agreed  to 
abandon  the  general  contract  plan,  but  agreeing  for  their 
own  interest,  if  they  have  any  interest  in  this  business,  that 
we  should  make  some  few  special  contracts,  they  arbitrarily 
sat  down  and  refused  to  join  in  any  specials  whatever;  this, 
although  the  testimony  of  every  one  directly  interested  in 
this  business,  knowing  more  about  it  than  they  ever  will 
know,  was  that  some  specials  are  absolntely  necessary  to 
preserve  the  business.  Now,  here  is  Commissioner  Midgley 
and  the  Orange  and  Iron  Pipe  rates.  They  do  not  want 
any  specials  at  all.  I  never  have  seen  a  road  yet  that  could 
adopt  a  tariff  on  the  first  day  of  January  and  stick  to  that 
tariff  the  year  through. 

Mr.  Eistine — When  in  New  York  we  did  not  have  an 
opportunity  to  talk  the  matter  over  fully  with  them.  They 
were  after  the  "  Sunset,"  which  did  not  give  us  much  of  an 
opportunity.  Mr.  Hannaford  and  others  here,  I  think,  will 
bear  me  out  that  they  stated  that  if  their  arrangements  were 
perfected  with  the  "Sunset."  they  would  be  perfectly  will- 
ing to  join  with  us  in  any  rates,  special  contracts,  or  any- 
thing necessary  to  transact  the  business;  and  more,  Mr. 
Fink  himself  advocated  the  special  contract  plan  at  that 
time,  because  he  said  that  if  a  pool  were  made  with  the 
"  Sunset"  it  would  enable  diversion.  Now  they  have  sud- 
denly changed  their  minds.  Would  it  not  be  a  good  idea, 
in  order  to  follow  up  your  arguments,  that  the  Trans-Con- 
tinental Association  appoint  a  Committee  to  go  to  New  York 
and  lay  the  subject   before    them   as  a  Trans-Cnntinental 


41 

matter.  Unfortunately,  when  you  were  there  you  were  not 
vested  with  the  authority  to  speak  for  the  Association  as  a 
whole?  I  think,  undoubtedly,  that  this  would  be  au  oppor- 
tune action  on  the  part  of  this  Association,  and  would  sus- 
tain your  arguments  in  favor  of  a  few  special  contracts. 

Mr.  Stubbs — There  is  no  question,  Mr.  Ristine,  about  the 
animus  of  the  Trunk  Lines— that  is,  that  they  wanted  to 
cut  the  throat  of  the  Sunset  in  this  matter,  and  there  is  no 
question  about  the  result;  that  when  I  went  back  there  they 
found  it  would  be  a  dangerous  experiment,  and  concluded 
they  would  not  do  it.  Now,  as  to  their  action  in  regard  to 
the  special  contracts  which  you  claim,  is  a  reversal  of  what 
they  told  you  after  I  left  them. 

Mr.  Ristine — Understand  that  their  statement  was  not  an 
official  one,  merely  their  open  expressions  in  Mr.  Guilford's 
office. 

Mr.  Stubbs — Whether  that  is  the  case  or  not,  they  found 
it  was  not  expedient  to  make  a  pool  with  the  Sunset,  and 
that  it  was  not  possible  to  shut  them  out  of  New  England. 
Whether  that  was  the  reason  for  their  refusal,  I  cannot  say. 
But  I  do  say  that  Mr.  Fink  has  been  opposed  to  contracts 
from  the  beginning;  and  I  think  that  opposition  originated, 
or  was  owing  to  the  confusion  it  brought  into  his  accounts. 
But  there  is  another  reason,  and  a  more  important  reason, 
and  that  is  the  question  of  Congressional  legislation.  He 
is  very  tender  on  that  point,  and  considers  that,  whether  the 
principle  is  right  or  wrong,  the  practice  would  have  the 
effect  of  introducing  antagonistic  legislation.  He  wanted 
that  provocation  removed.  But  when  they  proposed  to 
•  to  adopt  this  tariff,  but  not  to  agree  to  any  contracts 
whatsoever,  I  said  to  them  that  I  thought  they  were  making 
a  mistake,  and  that  they  had  better  consider  it  carefully. 
The  answer  was  by  Mr.  Hayden,  I  think,  (and  I  have  the  rec- 
ord, which  I  will  bring  Up  here  so  that  you  can  refer  to  it,) 
that  they  had  beard  the  argument  over  and  over  again;  that 
th'  v  thought  there  was  nothing  new  to  be  udded.  I  told 
them  that  I  did  not  know  there  was  anything  new  to  be 


42 

added  to  what  we  had  already  said,  to  the  information  we 
had  given  them,  to  the  information  experience  had  given 
them.  They  said  they  did  not  want  any  special  contracts — 
would  not  agree  to  any — that  they  wanted  to  try  it  a  year 
without.  They  went  further,  and  said  that  they  did  not 
want  any  of  us  to  make  any  special  contracts,  and  it  took 
some  questioning  on  my  part  to  get  them  to  say  that  while 
they  did  not  want  any  of  us  to  make  contracts,  they  would 
not  object  if  the  lines  west  of  their  termini  joined  with  us 
in  making  special  contracts. 

Mr.  Eistine — I  do  not  see  how  they  could. 

Mr.  Stubbs — After  that  meeting  adjourned,  when  I  went 
in  to  get  a  letter  of  advice  to  the  New  England  lines,  ex- 
plaining the  situation,  I  found  that  Mr.  Guilford  had  signed 
a  communication  to  those  lines  wherein  he  stated  flatly  that 
no  special  contracts  were  to  be  made  by  any  of  us,  and 
Mr.  Bullen  told  me  that  that  was  their  understanding  of  it, 
and  I  had  to  call  for  the  stenographic  record  in  order  to 
show  the  incorrectness  of  that  statement.  I  told  Mr.  Guil- 
ford that  I  had  no  right  to  represent  the  Trans-Continental 
Association  in  that  matter,  and  I  did  not  agree  that  no  con- 
tracts would  be  made. 

Mr.  Bistine — The  plan  that  we  suggest  now  is  so  widely 
different  from  that  existing  in  the  past.  We  did  have  some 
2600  contracts,  including  Oregon;  now  we  could  limit  them 
to  about  100.  Previously  there  were  special  rates;  now  we 
propose  to  allow  a  percentage  off  in  such  necessary  cases. 
Do  you  not  think  if  a  committee  from  the  Trans-Continental 
Association  should  go  down  to  New  York  and  meet  these 
men,  that  they  might  be  able  to  exercise  some  influence  upon 
them  ? 

Mr.  Stubbs — At  present  I  do  not  think  they  would  have 
any  influence  with  them  whatsoever.  I  think,  however,  that 
if  there  was  any  hope  of  reversing  their  sentiment,  it  would 
be  worth  the  trial  but  my  own  view  is,  that  we  will  have  to 
run  along  for  several  months  and  show  by  our  experience  this 


43 

year,  under  the  operation  of  the  new  tariff,  that  our  judg- 
ment was  correct,  and  that  they  were  wrong,  and  show  by 
dollars  and  cents  that  we  are  all  losing  money,  or  that  they 
are  causing  us  to  do  so  without  benefiting  themselves,  which 
probably  might  change  their  views.  I  do  not  think  that 
while  this  Reagan  Bill  is  pending  in  the  House,  it  would  be 
any  use  talking  to  them. 

Mr.  IiIstixe — They  will  adjourn  before  long. 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  would  not  go  down  and  spend  five  minutes 
upon  the  proposition.  I  would  do  this:  if  we  found  it  nec- 
essary to  make  rates  which  are  not  provided. for  by  the  tariff, 
and  which  could  not  be  fairly  considered  as  a  violation  of 
the  agreement  upon  the  part  of  the  u  Sunset"  with  the  Trunk 
Lines,  that  they  would  maintain  the  rates,  I  would  not  al- 
low business  to  be  diverted  from  the  lines  concerned  in  this 
Pool  merely  to  satisfy  the  caprice  of  the  Trunk  Lines;  I 
would  arrange  to  take  it.  We  are  ready  to  make  any  fair 
terms  with  you  on  the  proposition. 

Mr.  Ristine — I  think  we  asked  for  too  much  when  we 
started  down.  AVe  talked  500  contracts;  if  we  had  talked 
100  our  chances  would  have  been  better. 

.Mr.  BrUfcBS — "We  did  not  state  any  definite  number.  We 
that  they  might  be  limited  to  500  or  100.  You  will 
find  that  the  commercial  community  here  is  very  much  ex- 
oiied  over  this  question,  and  you  will  find  that  the  aban- 
donment of  the  Contract  plan  will  cause  a  reversal  of  its  po- 
sition. What  the  merchants  objected  to  was  the  General 
I  tract  Plan  open  to  all,  to  every  one.  You  will  find  that 
the  men  who  handle  the  business,  that  pay  us  the  earnings, 
would  all  sympathize  with  and  actively  advocate  the  very 
proposition  we  presented  in  New  York,  namely:  to  abandon 
the  contract  plan  as  a  general  policy  and  make  some  special 
privileged  to  listen  to  a  proposed  re- 
port of  a  Committee  appointed  by  the  Board  of  Trade  upon 
the  transportation  -|  I  morning,  and  in  that 

report   the   Sin    Francisco   merchants    practically   recom- 


44 

mended  that  which  we  attempted  to  get  through,  but  they 
have  now  to  withdraw  their  report  on  account  of  our  entire 
change  of  front  in  this  business.  They  do  not  know  what 
to  do,  nor  where  they  are  going  to  stand. 

Mr.  Ristine — Mr.  Kimball,  what  do  you  think  of  my 
proposition  ? 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  suppose  the  Middle  and  Western  States 
and  Pacific  Coast  Lines  will  stand  right  in  with  the  Trunk 
Lines? 

Mr.  Ristine — That's  a  question. 

Mr.  Stubbs — We  sent  a  committee  to  interview  Mr. 
Midgley. 

Mr.  Ristine — And  he  stated  then  that  he  would  not  stand 
in  on  any  contracts. 

Mr.  Kimball — It  is  your  suggestion  to  appoint  a  commit- 
tee to  go  to  New  York  for  the  purpose  of  inducing  the 
Trunk  Lines  to  join  us  in  making  a  limited  number  of  spec- 
ial contracts. 

Mr.  Ristine — Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Kimball — I  should  favor  making  the  trial.  I  think 
the  hope  is  against  us,  but  we  might  make  an  effort. 

Mr.  Miller — Would  it  not  be  a  good  idea  to  also  inter- 
view the  Pacific  Cflast  Association  V 

Mr.  Towne — Let  the  ' 'Sunset"  take  the  business,  and  we 
divide  with  you  on  terms  fair  and  reasonable. 

Mr.  Ristine — What  I  fear  is  that  the  lines  from  Pittsburgh, 
etc.,  will  set  up  the  rates  upon  us. 

Mr.  Towne — Let  the  Oil  men  take  care  of  themselves. 

Mr.  Stubbs — The  reason  why  we  did  not  get  all  we  asked 
for  was  that  we  were  not  a  unit  among  ourselves. 

Mr.  Ristine— I  did  not  see  any  discord  among  our  mem- 
bers. 


45 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  saw  it. 

Mr.  Ristine — You  did  not  give  us  a  chance  to  say  any- 
thing. 

Mr.  Miller — Don't  you  think  we  could  stand  it  west  of 
the  Missouri  River,  upon  such  cases  absolutely  necessary  to 
be  made  ? 

Mr.  Stubbs — Possibly  we  might  stand  it  west  of  the  Mis- 
souri River;  but  I  do  not  think  it  fair  that  we  should  stand 
it.  I  do  not  favor  any  proposition  but  that  which  would  be 
just  and  equitable  to  us.  That  business  is  common  to  us 
all,  and  the  competition  which  we  experience,  and  which 
these  contracts  are  destined  to  meet,  is  common  to  us  all, 
ami  should  be  shared  by  all.  We  should  assume  that  the 
basis  of  division  of  the  rate,  if  not  essentially  just,  it  is  as 
near  just  as  we  can  agree  or  afford,  should  be  the  basis  of 
participation  in  this  competition,  and  that  any  discounts  or 
concessions  that  are  made  from  the  regular  tariff  rate  should 
be  shared  by  all  the  lines  sharing  in  the  business,  precisely 
as  they  share  in  the  Open  Tariff  rates. 

Mr.  Miller — Do  you  think  there  would  be  any  difficulty 
in  getting  the  other  lines  to  do  it,  whether  the  Trunk  Lines 
agree  to  it  or  not  ? 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  have  just  said  to  Mr.  Ristine,  that  if  this 
committee  does  not  have  its  labor  for  its  pains,  I  am  very 
much  mistaken.  We  will  have  to  admit  that  they  were  all 
very  much  occupied  by  the  single  idea  of  getting  all  of  this 
business  on  to  their  lines,  and  of  shutting  the  "Sunset"  out 
at  the  time  we  were  East. 

Mr.  Etm TM-:—  I  do  not  think  you  state  that  quite  fairly.  I 
do  not  think  tlxy  desired  to  do  that.  In  our  talk  with  them, 
we  advocated  their  opening  of  New  England  to  you,  and  they 
all  admitted  your  rights.  I  do  not  think  they  desired  to 
shut  you  out  entirely.  They  recognized  your  right  to  life, 
but  they  did  womi  to  force  you  to  pool;  there  is  no  denying 
that  fact  whether  you  make  one  or  not.     I  strongly  advo- 


46 

cated  that  they  open  New  England  to  your  line,  and  that 
they  not  make  that  an  issue  with  you,  and  further;  I  gave 
you  a  letter  prior  to  your  departure  for  the  East,  conveying 
that  sentiment,  and  which  was  signed  by  several  of  the 
members. 

Mr.  Towne— But  for  the  large  shrinkage  in  our  earniugs, 
and  the  great  difficulty  we  would  experience  in  securing  the 
return  of  the  traffic  to  the  rail,  which  would  naturally  go  by 
clipper,  I  would  like  to  see  it  tested  for  the  benefit  of  all 
those  who  do  not  recognize  that  there  is  not  any  business  in 
this  proposition.  The  trouble  is  that  when  traffic  is  once 
diverted  it  is  difficult  to  secure  it  to  its  original  channel. 

Mr.  Eistine— The  only  thing  which  occurs  to  me  is  that 
owing  to  the  position  which  the  matter  assumed  when  we 
were  East,  the  Trunk  Lines  may  consider  that  the  Trans- 
Continental  Association  did  not  make  an  effort  did  not  pre- 
sent the  facts  as  an  Association.  Certainly  Mr.  Stubbs  pre- 
sented the  facts  to  them  ably,  but  they  regarded  his  argu- 
ments more  in  the  light  of  an  appeal  from  the  "Sunset" 
Eoute  rather  than  from  the  Association,  and  it  occurred  to 
me  that  possibly  if  a  committee  went  there  authorized  to 
act  by  the  Association  they  might  be  able  to  influence  them 
to  assist  us  in  maintaining  this  traffic  by  all  rail.  We  all 
realize  that  the  only  way  to  maintain  it  is  by  the  aid  of 
some  few  special  contracts. 

Mr.  Stubbs — "We  went  down  there  as  representatives  of 
this  Association  for  the  purpose  of  getting  the  Trunk  Lines 
to  adopt  this  Tariff,  also  to  induce  them  to  agree  to  a  few 
special  contracts. 

Mr.  Eistine — Yes. 

Mr.  Stubbs— When  we  got  there  the  Trunk  Lines  switched 
off  from  that  and  brought  up  the  question  of  the  "  Sunset  " 
Eoute,  saying  they  would  not  discuss  the  proposition  of  the 
Tariff  or  the  contracts  at  all  until  the  question  of  the  re- 
striction of  territory  and  the  pool  with  the  "Sunset"  was 
decided.     The  debate  was  altogether  devoted  to  that  par- 


47 

ticular  subject.  I  do  not  think  that  they  need  any  light 
upon  the  subject  of  contracts.  I  do  not  think  we  have  any 
new  light  to  give  them.  We  certainly  had  the  opportunity 
to  give  them  all  that  was  requisite  or  wanted  on  that  day. 
They  understand  it;  but  if  there  is  any  hope  that  it  will 
chauge  their  views,  I  think  that  the  experiment  would  be 
worth  the  trial. 

The  Commissioner— Mr.  Hanuaford,  what  is  your  opinion 
npon  this  proposition  ? 

Mr.  Haxnaford — I  think  a  committee  could  get  some 
concessions  from  the  Trunk  Lines  in  the  way  of  specials, 
from  the  talk  we  had  there — that  is,  assuming  that  their 
differences  with  the  "  Sunset"  have  been  satisfactorily 
adjusted. 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  think  we  had  better  go  ahead  and  see 
whether  we  are  going  to  have  a  Trans-Continental  Associa- 
tion before  we  proceed  any  further  upon  a  proposition  as  to 
what  that  Association  shall  or  shall  not  do. 

Mr.  Ristine — Have  you  seen  the  circular  of  the  Joint 
Executive  Committee? 

Mr.  Stubbs — Yes,  I  have  seen  it. 

Mr.  Ristine — I  would  suggest  that  the  Commissioner 
read  it. 

The  Commissioner  introduced  the  circular,  reading  as 
follows: 

Cibculab  No.  674— Joint  Executivk  Committee. 

Trctnk  Line  Commission.  1 

34G  Bjjoadway,  New  Yobb,  Jan.  7,    85.  ]"/ 

Agreement  Regarding  Pacific  Coast  Trajfic. 

Notice  is  here-by  given  that  the  following  agreement  regarding  rates  on 
Pacific  Coast  traffic  has  been  made : 

That,  taking  effect  January  8th,  1885,  the  following  through  rates  shall  ap-   Trnnk  Uam 
ply  on  all  traffic  to  Pacific  Coast  points  from  New  York,  Boston,  Philadelphia   < '"  "'  ' 
and  Baltimore  and  points  common  therewith:  a.  west- 

bound rates. 


48 


Classes i    1st 

2d. 

3d. 

4th. 

5th. 

6th. 

•7th. 

8th. 

9th. 

10th. 

$5.00 

$4.00 

$3.00 

$2.75 

$2.50 

$2.25 

$2.00 

$1.75 

$1.50 

$1.25 

Trans-Continental  Association  Classification  No.  1,  taking  effect  January 
1st,  1885,  to  govern. 

That  the  system  of  special  contracts  will  be  discontinued  after  December 
31st,  1884,  and  all  shipments  shall  be  billed  in  accordance  with  the  tariff. 

It  was  also  agreed  that  the  "  Sunset  Koute"  shall  not  take  shipments  from 
any  interior  points  west  of  New  York,  Philadelphia  and  Baltimore,  nor  from 
New  Jersey  or  Hudson  Eiver  points. 


Referring  to 
suggested 
telegram  to 
be  sent  the 
Trunk  Lines 
see  page  38. 


Vote  upon 
the  proposi- 
tion to  send 
telegram  to 
Trunk  Lines 


Albert  Fink, 

Commissioner. 


C.  W. 


BtJLLEN, 

Secretary. 


Objection  to 
forwarding 
telegram  to 
Trunk  Lines 


Mr.  Stubbs — That  is  not  literally  what  was  agreed  to.  We 
did  not  agree  that  we  would  not  take  freight  from  New  Jer- 
sey points,  that  ought  to  be  regarded  as  east  of  New  York  or 
east  of  Trenton. 

The  Commissioner — This  takes  us  back  to  the  proposition 
as  to  whether  the  dispatch  proposed  by  Mr.  Ristine  shall 
be  forwarded  or  not.     What  is  your  opinion,  Mr.  Goddard? 

Mr.  Goddard — I  have  no  objection.  Bat  I  do  not  think 
anything  can  be  accomplished  with  the  Trunk  Lines  either 
by  letter  or  message.     They  should  be  seen  personally. 

The  question  was  submitted  to  vote,  resulting  in  its  unan- 
imous acceptance. 

Mr.  Stubbs— We  are  arranging  to  make  rates  from  New 
York  half  a  cent  per  gallon  higher  than  from  Cleveland,  cut- 
ting the  Sunset  out  and  centering  the  business  in  the  hands 
of  individuals. 

Mr.  Towne— Why  not  word  your  telegram  to  cover  that  ? 

Mr.  Stubbs— I  advocated  asking  Pittsburgh,  Buffalo  and 
Cleveland  rate  from  New  York.  There  is  another  reason 
why  that  dispatch  should  not  go.  It  is  this:  that  it  contem- 
plates making  the  rates  open,  that  is,  the  rates  as  named  in 
that  dispatch,  open  to  everybody,    while  part  of   our  agree- 


49 

ment  with  the  Standard  Oil  Company  was  that  these  pro- 
posed rates  should  be  special  to  them,  and  that  others  should 
take  the  Open  Tariff.  If  that  dispatch  is  answered  favorably, 
and  the  rates  are  put  iu,  we  violate  our  agreement  with 
these  parties,  and  there  is  then  no  ageeement  on  any  Oil 
rates. 

Mr.  Towne — Let  the  m9ssage  be  worded  to  cover  the 
ground.  My  vote  will  stand  the  same,  but  I  think  we  should 
word  the  message  so  as  to  cover  that  point. 

Mr.  Kistine  was  of  the  opinion  that  it  would  not  have 
that  effect  and  argued  that  the  only  parties  who  could  carry 
Oil  iu  tank  cars  were  the  Standard  and  Continental  Com- 
panies. 

Mr.  Towne  offered  the  following : 

Resolved,  That  the  agreement  to  send  dispatch  to  Assistant  Commissioner  Resolution 

Gailford,  covering  the  Oil  business  for  the  year  1885,  be  reconsidered,  and  the  reconsider- 

matter  referred  to  therein  be  placed  in  the  hands  of  the  Committee  which  sending  of 

it  is  proposed  be  appointed  to  wait  upon  him  at  an  early  day  in  conneclion  m^^Lines 

with  other  matters  of  interest  to  this  Association.  and  placing 

the  matter 

Seconded  by  Mr.  Miller.  5  ^cSS*" 

mittee. 

Adopted. 

Mr.  Towne— I  move  that  the  requirements  of  the  Com- 
mittee be  drawn  and  submitted. 

Mr.  Stubbs  thought  that  the  contract  with  the  Oil  men  Further dis- 
would  be  a  subject  for  conference  with  the  Middle  States  oTrates?1 
Lines,  as  they  would  certainly  be  governed  by  the  action  of 
the  Trunk  Lines. 

Mr.  Towne — (to  Mr.  Ristine) — I  had  an  idea  from  you 
that  the  Association  were  committed  to  this  special  rate  to 
these  Oil  Companies. 

Mr.  Hi  stive — Mr.  Stubbs  and  myself  had  a  conference 
with  the  Standard  and  Continental  Oil  Companies  in  my 
office  when  I  was  Commissioner,  and  wo  made  a  proposition 
to  them  of  7}  cents  per  gallon  on  tank,  and  I  think  8J  cents 


50 

on  case,  and  we  jointly  indited  a  letter  at  that  time  to  Mr. 
Vaillant,  and  sent  copy  of  it  to  Mr.  Midgley. 

[Letter  read.] 

Mr.  Ristine — To  that  Mr.  Vaillant  replied  that  he  expected 
to  meet  us  shortly,  and  preferred  to  leave  the  matter  open 
until  that  time.  Mr.  Midgley  replied  that  the  proposition 
contained  in  our  letter  was  acceptable  to  them — that  is,  7J 
tank  and  8  f0  case.  Bat  before  we  went  to  Chicago  Mr.  Stubbs 
received  telegram  from  Mr.  Tilford  that  the  rates  were  en- 
tirely too  high,  and  that  they  could  not  afford  to  pay  them. 

Mr.  Ristine  explained  the  result  of  the  conference  between 
the  representatives  of  the  Trans-Continental  and  Middle  and 
Western  States  Associations  and  the  Oil  Companies  at  Chi- 
cago, and  stated  that  the  understanding  was  that  the  rates 
would  apply  from  Buffalo,  Pittsburgh  and  Cleveland. 

Mr.  Stubbs — That  was  the  understanding,  but  later  on 
you  had  an  interview  with  Mr.  Midgley  with  the  effect  of  the 
fact  being  elicited  that  if  the  Trunk  Lines  said  there  should 
be  no  contracts  they  would  have  no  special  contracts;  hence 
he  took  the  ground  that  that  superseded  his  assent  to  our 
original  proposition. 

Mr.  Towne — The  matter  of  how  to  reach  it  I  do  not  care 
very  much  about.  I  hope,  however,  you  will  keep  it  off  the 
clippers. 

Mr.  Goddard— I  do  not  understand,  Mr.  Chairman,  that 
they  have  withdrawn  any  action  regarding  interior  business 
from  what  was  done  in  Chicago.  They  agreed  to  stand  in 
with  the  Trunk  Lines  on  Seaboard  business.  The  Trunk 
Lines  have  no  interest  in,  nor  have  they  any  right  to  inter- 
fere with  the  Middle  States  Lines  as  to  business  from  Cleve- 
land and  Pittsburgh.  My  understanding  is  that  the  action 
taken  in  Chicago,  still  stands  absolutely. 

Mr.  Stubbs  —  You  are  taking  a  contrary  action  to  that 
which  you  took  in  Chicago.  \I  labored  very  hard  to  get  that 
out  of  Mr.  Midgley.     I  labored  to  find  whether  they  would 


51 

stand  in  with  the  Trunk  Lines  on  Atlantic  seaboard  busi- 
ness, and  whether  they  meant  their  action  to  apply  on  all 
business.  Report  came  back  that  they  propossd  to  do  pre- 
cisely as  the  Trunk  Lines  did.  If  there  were  no  special 
contracts  from  New  York,  there  wonld  be  none  from  Chi- 
cago. That  is  what  I  understand  the  position  to  be  nowj] 
If  I  am  wrong,  I  want  to  be  set  right. 

Mr.  Miller — I  think  you  are  right. 

Mr  Ristine — I  should  infer  that  these  Oil  rates  were  sep- 
arate from  and  independent  of  the  general  tariff. 

The  Commissioner— Relative  to  the  Oil  from  Cleveland,  I 
received  a  telegram  from  Mr.  Vaillant  asking  how  he  should 
bill  oil  from  Cleveland,  to  which  I  replied:  "At  $1.50  to 
outside  parties." 

Mr.  Stubbs— I  think  that  is  all  right  so  far  as  Cleveland 
and  Buffalo  are  concerned,  but  still  the  record  stands  so 
that  if  they  choose  to  do  it  Mr.  Midgley  could  say:  "You 
had  notice  that  we  would  not  join  in  any  of  these  rates." 

Mr.  Miller — They  have  issued  list  of  arbitraries  to  apply 
on  this  business,  regardless  of  origin.  That  is  why  I  think 
you  are  correct. 

Mr.  Stubbs— Would  it  not  be  a  pretty  good  idea  to  ascer- 
tain how  we  stand  on  this  ? 

Mr.  Goddard — Does  not  the  resolution  of  Mr.  Towne 
place  the  whole  question  in  the  hands  of  a  proposed  Com- 
mittee ? 

Mr.  Stubbs— Do  you  not  think,  Mr.  Goddard,  that  we 
should  take  some  immediate  action  on  this  subject?  These 
men  I  think  understand  that  the  contract  is  off,  and  I  feel 
that  we  ought  to  take  care  of  them;  in  other  words,  if  the 
Iowa  lines  or  any  lines  east  go  back  on  this  special,  that 
until  we  give  them  notice  and  they  have  an  opportunity  to 
change  their  method  of  doing  the  business,  the  Trans-Con- 
tinental Association  will  see  them  out  in  the  matter,  no  mat- 


52 

ter  what  it  costs.  Therefore,  I  think  it  would  be  wise  for 
us  to  ascertain  exactly  from  the  lines  west  of  Pittsburgh  and 
Chicago  whether  they  are  going  to  stand  in  on  these  con- 
tracts or  not. 

The  Commissioner — On  the  same  day  that  we  sent  the  let- 
ter to  Mr.  Guilford  we  sent  a  letter  to  Mr.  Midgley,  making 
rate  from  Chicago  7  cents  on  tank  and  7J  on  case,  and  ask- 
ing him  to  reply  by  wire,  but  he  has  not  replied  as  yet.  I 
don't  know  whether  he  will  accept  or  not. 

Mr.  Sttjbbs — If  steps  have  been  taken  to  achieve  this  re- 
sult we  need  not  discuss  it  further;  but  I  want  to  ascer- 
tain just  how  we  stand  on  this  whole  business.  We  have 
labored  for  years  to  get  it  fixed  to  our  lines,  and  we  now 
have  it  fixed  very  nicely — better,  possibly,  than  it  ever  was 
before — and  where  we  think  we  could  profit  by  the  efforts  we 
have  made  in  the  past,  and  now  these  new  complications  have 
arisen  which  threaten  our  feeling  of  security. 

The  Commissioner — This  proposition  of  7  cents  in  tanks 
makes  the  rate  from  Chicago  the  same  as  it  was  from 
Cleveland  last  year.  I  think  they  will  accept  it  without 
demur. 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  do  not  know  that  any  very  serious  result 
would  follow  if  we  did  not  secure  the  Cleveland  rates  from 
New  York.  At  the  same  time  I  think  we  ought  to  make  the 
rates  the  same. 

Mr.  Ristine— I  think  we  will  receive  some  reply  before 
this  meeting  adjourns,  and  that  the  matter  is  in  good  shape  to 
rest  just  as  it  is  for  a  day  or  two. 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  move — 

Kesoiution         That  we  proceed  in  the  order  of  the  resolution  adopted  yesterday. 

Procedure — 

seepages.  Adopted. 

Territorial        The  Commissioner  read  the  first  clause  of  the  resolution, 
ExVpr3ons  and  declared  that  to  be  the  first  question  for  debate. 

upon. 


53 

Tbe  Commissioner— Mr.  Kimball,  I  would  ask  you  if  you 
think  there  should  be  any  change  so  far  as  your  Company 
is  concerned  in  regard  to  the  territorial  division  heretofore 
existing? 

Mr.  Kimball — I  think  that  the  territorial  division  is  sat- 
isfactory. 

The  Commissioner— What  is  your  opinion,  Mr.  Oakes? 

Mr.  Oakes — I  think  that  is  all  right. 

The  Commissioner  asked  for  expressions  from  the  repre- 
sentatives of  the  Southern  Lines  upon  the  question. 

No  objections  being  ottered,  and  the  morning  having 
already  been  expended,  a  recess  was  taken  until  2  p.m. 


Thursday,  January  15th — Afternoon  Session. 
Meeting  convened  at  2.30  p.  m. 
All  members  represented. 
The  Commissioner— The  matter  of  Mr.  Stubbs*  resolution,  Territorial 

n  •  e  i  *ii  i  division  and 

the  first  clause  of  which,  referring  to  the  territorial  boundary  terms  there- 
lines  between  the  Northern  and  the  Southern  Lines,  seemed  sionupon. 
to   be  acceptable  to  the  members  this  morning,  the  next 
subject  for  debate,  under  the  order  of  the  resolution,  is  the 
second  clause,  which   proposes  two  pools  as  between  the 
Southern  Lines. 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  thought  before  we  adjourned  that  the 
matter  of  the  first  section  of  the  resolution  was  under  dis- 
cussion. 

The  Commissioner — I  understood  it  to  be  settled  by  com- 
mon consent.  The  question  was  submitted,  and  there  cer- 
tainly were  no  objections. 

Mr.  Stubbs — Let  me  call  your  attention  to  the  fact  that 
tli.it  first  section  involves  moro  than  perhaps  you  might 
think  from   a  cursory   reading.     Mr.  Kimball   asked  me  a 


54 

question,  when  the  resolution  was  under  discussion,  what  I 
meant  by  territorial  division,  to  which  I  replied  that  I  meant 
not  only  the  division  of  the  territory,  but  also  the  terms  un- 
der which  each  would  consent  to  occupy  that  territory  and 
that  alone.  Now,  the  mere  fact  that  we  all  agree  that  the 
northern  boundary  of  California  shall  constitute  the  line  of 
demarcation  between  the  territories,  does  not  constitute  a 
complete  agreement  as  to  the  territorial  division.  Why? 
because  the  Oregon  Short  Line,  the  O.  R.  &  N.  and  the 
Northern  Pacific  Companies  have  not  consented  to  occupy 
that  territory  as  yet,  and  they  will  not  until  we  say  some- 
thing to  them  and  we  have  not  consented  to  occupy  the  terri- 
ritory  south  of  that  until  we  have  made  some  trade  with  these 
gentlemen.  Therefore  the  first  section,  as  I  understand 
it,  brings  up  the  whole  question  as  to  whether  the  O.  S.  L., 
O.  R.  &  N.,  and  Northern  Pacific  Companies  will  consent 
to  occupy  the  territory  north  of  the  boundary  line,  and  if 
they  will,  upon  what  terms,  and  then  whether  we  can  agree 
upon  those  terms. 

The  Commissioner— Mr.  Kimball  was  asked  his  opinion 
on  that  matter,  and  he  stated  that  the  territorial  division 
was  perfectly  satisfactory.  I  believe  Mr.  Hannaford  simi- 
larly expressed  himself. 

Mr.  Kimball — The  physical  division  of  territory  is  satis- 
factory. As  Mr.  Stubbs  states  it,  the  question  is  upon  the 
terms  of  occupation  of  that  territory. 

The  Commissioner — We  will  consider  then  that  the  matter 
of  the  first  section  is  still  open  for  debate. 

Mr.  Oakes — Mr.  Chairman,  gentlemen,  you  will  remem- 
ber at  Chicago,  just  before,  we  adjourned,  that  I  offered  a 
motion,  asking  that  the  Association  allow  to  the  Northern 
Lines  eight  per  cent,  of  the  gross  revenue  on  San  Francisco 
business,  less,  of  course,  the  deductions  which  have  been 
conceded,  from  time  to  time,  and  when  that  resolution  was 
offered,  Mr.  Goddard,  if  I  remember  right,  submitted  an 
amendment.     I  asked  for  eight  per  cent,  and  he  asked,  if 


55 

action  was  had  upon  that  proposition,  that  eight  per  cent., 

or  any  other  percentage  that  might  be  agreed  upon,  should 

be  allowed  to  the  Southern  Lines  upon  Portland  business. 

Since  I   have  been  here  I  have  had  some  talk  with  other 

members  of  the  Association,  and  we  have  studied  to  reach 

some  solution  of  the  question  that  would  be  acceptable  to 

Mr.  Goddard  and  to  others  of  the  Association,  who  think 

that  some  allowance  should  be  made  to  the  Southern  Lines 

as  well  as  to  the  Northern  Lines;  and  I  have  prepared  a  forTem"™ 

rough  memo,  here  of  the  results  under  a  proposition  which  SShcm 

I  am  about  to  submit.  Terrltory- 

We  find  from  the  Commissioner's  statements  that  the  ac-  compara- 
tual  gross  earnings  on  Portland  business  for  nine  months  SjJolP1" 
amount  to  §1,277,394;  on  San  Francisco  business  for  same  iSoeS? 
period,  §5,791,000.     I  have  added  to  the  figures  of  each  SuSSm? 
point  an  estimated  amount  for  the  three  remaining  months 
of  the  year,  at  the  same  rate  per  month;  that  is,  I  have  added 
one-third,  which  brings  the  total  up  to  $1,703,000  for  Port- 
land, and  for  San  Francisco  $7,721,000.     The  net  result  of  SSSUL2L" 
an  allowance  of  ten  per  cent,  on  the  business  of  each  place  onUieCbu8i- 
would  be  to  yield  to  the  Northern  Lines  7J  per  cent,  instead  point 
of  6  per  cent.,  which  amount  they  are  now  receiving.     Mr. 
Stubbs  has  figured  the  actual  amount  for  nine  months,  or 
rather  has  figured  upon  the  actual  revenue  for  nine  months. 
He  makes  it  very  nearly  eight  per  cent. 

I  would  say,  if  this  proposition  is  accepted,  the  Northern 
Lines  would  be  willing,  and  it  might  be  qualified  that  they  encebe- 
sball  in  no  event  receive  to  exceed  seven  and   one-half  per  ehangMbta 

percentages 

cent,  as  the  net   difference   between   the   two   allowances,   nottoex- 

.  ceed  7  ii  per 

Deducting  from  this  amount  the  amount  we  pay  out  for  ex-  cent 
penses,  would  leave  $529,781,  say  6f  per  cent.  I  think  if  b«tf 
this  allowance  is  made  an  agreement  can  be  reached  between 
the  Northern  Pacific  and  the  Union  Pacific  for  division  of 
the  amount,  and  I  do  not  well  see  how  any  agreement  can 
be  arrived  at  as  between  the  two  companies,  unless  some 
additional  allowance  is  made  to  the  Northern  Lines,  an 
amount  that  will  in  some  degree  compensate  the  Northern 
ific  for  what  they  will  have  to  yield  to  the  Union  Pacific. 


56 

tiv™Pgroawth  From  observation  of  the  growth  of  business  at  the  two 
at  san Fran-  Poiats>  I  arn  confident  that  the  ratio  of  growth  in  the  busi- 
poSan1!?  ness  °^  Portland  will  far  exceed  that  of  San  Francisco,  and 
in  a  proposition  of  this  kind  there  is  an  element  which  ap- 
peals to  some  members  of  this  Association.  The  best  illus- 
tration I  can  give  of  it  would  be  the  experience  of  the  inves- 
tor who  always  wanted  a  good  bond — always  wanted  a  first 
class  first  mortgage  bond— a  bond  about  which  there  could 
be  no  question  at  all.  In  buying  that  bond  he  wanted  an 
element  of  speculation.  There  is  an  element  of  speculation 
in  this  proposition,  and  I  think  in  the  next  twelve  months, 
and  before  the  year  is  through,  if  will  be  found  that  the  As- 
sociation actually  will  not  be  called  upon  to  pay  the  Northern 
Lines  as  much  as  they  have  paid  the  past  year,  and  I  think  it 
is  a  proposition  that  is  entitled  to  the  serious  consideration  of 
the  Association,  and  I  submit  it  in  the  best  of  faith,  for  the 
-2rousofde*  s°le  purpose  of  bringing  about  harmony,  and  in  the  belief  that 
competition  ^G  Northern  Pacific  is  conceding  a  good  deal.  I  very  much 
doubt  if  the  Northern  Pacific  the  last  year  has  been  prop- 
erly compensated  for  keeping  out  of  this  field,  but  we 
agreed  to  stand  by  it  and  we  have  done  so.  We  do  not 
want  to  go  into  San  Francisco.  We  feel  if  we  ever  should 
enter  the  San  Francisco  field  for  business  it  would  be  very 
difficult  for  us  to  withdraw.  On  the  other  hand,  we  feel 
that  if.  the  Gentral  Pacific  entered  the  Portland  field  it 
would  be  very  difficult  for  them  to  withdraw,  and  we  would 
never  have  peace.  It  would  still  further  complicate  the 
situation,  and  be  still  more  difficult  to  arrive  at  any  ar- 
rangement that  would  do  as  full  justice  to  all  the  interests 
involved  as  an  arrangement  such  as  we  have  had  the  last 
year,  and  which  I  hope  we  will  have  during  this  year. 

The  Commissioner  asked  for  expressions  on  the  part  of 
the  Southern  Lines  upon  the  proposition. 

position  of        ]yfr>   Goddard — I  cannot  speak  from  the  text,  as  I  have 

A.,l.fiB.J).  ■*- 

o?n  p^sub1-  no^  noure(l  sufficiently  to  argue  the  matter  intelligently.     I 

sidy-  can  say  as  a  principle,  however,  that  it  seems  to  me  that  the 

amount  we  have  been  allowing  to  the  Northern  Lines  is 


57 

certainly  ample,  and  I  have  no  reason  to  expect  that  our 
people  would  consent  to  an  increase  of  that  amount, 
whether  it  stands  as  it  is  to-day,  or  whether  it  is  exchange- 
able on  a  percentage  of  Portland  and  San  Francisco  busi- 
ness.    That  portion  of  it  makes  but  little  difference  to  us. 

Mr.  Muir — I  would  like  to  know  how  much  the  Associa-  P.M.8.s. 
tion  pays  to  the  Pacific  Mail  account  of  subsidy  ?  subsidy. 

Mr.  Stubbs—  $95,000  per  month  both  ways.  Probably, 
deducting  amount  of  credit  account  of  space,  it  amounts  to 
$55,000  or  $60,000  per  month. 

The  Commissioner  presented  statement  of  the  subsidy 
paid  from  October  1,  1883,  to  November  30,  1884,  which 
showed  total  of  $910,901.79  for  that  period. 

Mr.  Goddard— It  seems  to  me,  Mr.  Chairman,  that  per-  second 
haps   it   is   a   favorable   time   to   raise  the  questiou  as  to  theyau'g- 
whether  the  extension  of  a  line  already  constructed,  form-  tion  of  any 
ing  a  second  route  to  a  given  point,  adds  to  its  strength  in  tion  of  per" 
the  consideration  of  percentages.     There  is  a  principle  in- 
volved in  this  question  that  possibly  we  may  be  interested 
in  later.     We  might  get  that  principle  settled. 

Mr.  Stebbins — Are  you  willing  to  take  your  percentage  on 
the  basis  of  your  connection  with  the  D.  &  R.  G.,  your 
short  line? 

Mr.  Goddard — I  do  not  quite  understand  your  proposi- 
tion. 

M  i .  Oakes— He  wants  to  make  a  partner  of  you  as  via 
the  D.  &  R.  G.,  it  being  your  short  line. 

Mr.  Goddard— I  do  not  know,  Mr.  Stebbins,  but  what 
that  would  be  a  good  proposition — one  worthy  of  considera- 
tion. 

Mr.   Stebbins— I  understood  that  what  you  were  getting 
at  was  that  the  Oregon  Short  Line  does  not  increase  the  ca- 
ity  of  the  Union  Pacific  for  earnings;  that  it  should  bo 
tested  by  its  short  line  to  Ogden. 


58 


Mr.  Goddard — That  was  as  to  California  business.  It  is 
a  question  that  applies  in  several  different  shapes,  and  I 
thought  perhaps  we  had  better  settle  it. 

Mr.  Oakes — Yours  would  be  almost  a  parallel  case.  You 
have  already  your  San  Francisco  Line;  you  will  have  your 
line  to  San  Diego. 


Proposition 
of  Northern 
Lines.  (See 
page  55.) 


Discussion  deferred. 

Mr.  Oakes— I  submitted  a  proposition. 
Association  to  take  some  action  upon  it. 


I  would  like  the 


The  Commisssoner — The  proposition  submitted  by  Mr. 
Oakes  relative  to  the  terms  associate  with  the  division  of 
terrritory  as  between  the  members,  is  before  the  meeting. 
No  one  but  Mr.  Goddard  has  as  yet  expressed  himself  upon 
the  proposition. 

Mr.  Oakes — You  can  consider  the  proposition  as  a  reso- 
tion;  so  much  of  it  as  applies  to  the  percentages  proposed 
to  be  allotted  as  between  the  Northern  and  Southern  Lines. 

Seconded  by  Mr.  Stubbs. 


Mr.  Kimball — Mr.  Chairman,  if  I  understand   this  pro- 
position, it  is  that  the  Southern  Lines  or  California  Lines 


On  subdi- 
vision be- 
tween 

Linesofpro-  pay  ten  per  cent,  to  the  Northern  Lines  of  the  revenue  upon 
sidy.  San  Francisco  business,  and  that  the  Northern  Lines  pay  to 

the  Southern  Lines  ten  per  cent,  of  the  revenue  upon 
Portland  business,  but  that  there  is  no  provision  in  that 
resolution  to  determine  how  much  of  the  subsidy  paid  by 
Southern  Lines  to  the  North  shall  go  to  either  member  of 
the  Associated  Lines  on  the  North. 

Mr.  Towne — That  would  be  a  matter  between  yourselves. 

Mr.  Kimball — So  that  is  a  matter  to  adjust  between  our- 
selves. My  friend,  Mr.  Oakes,  has  had  more  experience  in 
"  blind  pools"  than  I  have,  and  I  would  like  to  know  in 
some  definite  form  how  the  Union  Pacific  interest  would 
come  out  on  that  proposition.  If  I  am  not  mistaken  in  my 
figures,  the  Union  Pacific  on  that  basis,  taking  $1,750,000  as 


the  revenues  on  Portland,  and  87,750,000  for  the  revenues 
on  San  Francisco,  the  Union  Pacific  interest — treating  on 
the  north  the  lines  as  one,  and  on  the  south  making  our 
percentage  practically  that  we  have  under  the  Tucker 
award — would  contribnte  $242,000  of  that  subsidy  we  pay 
into  the  pool  on  the  North  and  the  pool  on  the  South.  But  if 
Mr.  Oakes  is  not  ready  to  declare  the  basis  of  division 
between  the  two  companies,  I  am  willing  for  the  first  time 
to  go  in  with  the  Northern  Pacific  on  a  "  blind  pool,"  and  I 
will  vote  "  Aye  "  on  the  resolution. 

Mr.  Oakes — Do  you  want  me  to  state  publicly  what  we 
are  willing  to  do  ? 

Mr.  Kimball — No;  it  is  not  necessary. 

The  vote  stood  as  follows :  subsidy11 

proposition; 

Ayes— G.  H.  &  S.  A.,  N.  P.,  O.  E.  &  N.,  U.  P.— 4.  It there" 

Nays— A.  T.  S.  P.,  A.  <fe  P.,  B.  &  M.,  C.  P.,  D.  &  R.  G., 
D.  <fc  R.  G.  W.,  S.  P.,  T.  &  P.— 8. 

Declared  lost. 

Mr.  Stubbs— Can   vou  tell  us  what  the  vote  was  on  the   Votes  on 

*  l>rvvi<>us 

eight  per  cent,  proposition  at  Chicago  ?  subsidy 

tious. 

The  Commissioner— Ayes  6,  nays  6,  upon  Mr.  Goddard's 
amendment;  ayes  3,  nays  8,  upon  Mr.  Oakes'  resolution. 

Mr.  Stubbs— What  percentage  did  the  Union  Pacific  pay   JLi'Jft 
of  the  Northern  Pacific  subsidy  ?  !ssVll>1,iv 

The  Commissioner— From  November,  1883,  to  July  31, 
1884,  they  have  paid  26  £  per  cent. 

Mr.  Stubbs — Under  Mr.  Tucker's  award,  if  that  is  correct, 
they  would  pay  about  18  per  cent. 

The  Commissioner— If  the  Tucker  award  covered  the  whole 
settlement,  they  would. 

Mr  8TUBB8 — Passenger  and  Freight  together,  say  20  per 
cent.,  and  the  other  lines  would  only  have  to  pay  four-fifths 
of  the  subsidy,  and  in  round  numbers  the  subs  i  <  ly  is 6  per  cent. 


60 
Mr.  Ristine  submitted  the  following: 

Proposition  Resolved,  That  the  Southern  Lines  allow  to  the  Northern  Lines — that  is, 
Lines!1'1"3"1  the  0reg°n  Short  Line,  the  Oregon  Railway  &  Navigation  and  Northern  Pa- 
cific Companies — a  moneyed  allowance  of  &  per  cent,  on  San  Francisco  busi- 
ness, to  be  divided  between  the  lines  in  interest  in  such  manner  as  they  can 
agree  upon,  and  that  the  Northern  Lines  pay  to  the  Southern  Lines  6  per 
cent,  on  Portland  traffic. 

Seconded  by  Mr.  Goddard. 
Question  on       Mr.  Oakes — I  would  like  to  know  if  it  is  the  desire  of  this 

latent  of 

resolution.  Association  to  break  up,  and  whether  there  is  no  Line  here 
having  the  courage  to  take  a  step  in  that  directiou;  because, 
if  it  is  the  desire  of  the  Association  to  break  here,  I  can  tell 
them  that  the  Northern  Pacific  stands  ready  to  break  it  so 
far  as  they  are  concerned. 

Amendment       Mr.  Stubbs — I  move  to  amend,  substituting  "8  per  cent." 

thereto.  °  r 

for  "6  per  cent."  wherever  it  appears.  I  think  it  is  idle  to 
waste  time  upon  a  proposition  which  we  know  will  not  be 
accepted. 

Seconded  by  Mr.  Eccles. 

Adopted  unanimously. 

The  Commissioner — Upon  the  resolution  as  amended 

Mr.  Stubbs— I  wish  to  state  that  I  vote  for  that  resolution 
Northern      with  the  understanding  that  another  resolution,  or  an  under- 
shareinp.    standing  which  will  be  a  matter  of  record,  be  reached,  to 
other  subs?-  the  effect  that  this  is  done  in  consideration  of  the  one  keep- 
ing out  of  the  other's  territory,  and  also  with  the  under- 
standing that  these  Northern  Lines  shall  agree,  as  the  North- 
ern Pacific  has  in  the  past,  to  pay  their  share  of  Pacific  Mail 
and  other  subsidies. 

Mr.  Goddard — That  is  my  understanding  of  it. 

ment°ofh"  ^r-  Oakes— I  think  there  should  be  a  resolution  such  as 
nnefon6^  Mr.  Stubbs  suggests.  When  it  comes  to  vote  I  shall  also 
othe7.°f  the  move  as  a  further  understanding,  if  the  resolution  be  adopted 
rlvfnue0t  ty  ^ie  Association,  that  the  gross  revenue  from  the  entire 
detetoSpon  Oregon  business  done  by  the  Southern  Lines  shall  be  re- 


61 

ported  and  paid  to  the  Northern  Lines,  and  that  the  gross 
revenue  from  the  entire  business  for  southern  territory  done 
by  the  Northern  Lines  shall  be  paid  by  said  Northern  Lines 
to  the  Southern  Lines.  Each  territory  is  entitled  to  full  and 
absolute  protection  against  the  encroachments  of  the  lines 
in  the  other — a  thing  that  will  work  both  ways. 

Mr.  Stubbs — If  1  understand  your  suggestion,  it  is 
that  if  you  carry  any  San  Francisco  business,  notwith- 
standing you  receive  full  rates  thereon,  you  turn  the 
revenue  over  to  us,  and  vice  versa  on  Portland  business.  I 
prefer  not  to  answer  now,  but  it  strikes  me  that  I  should  be 
very  unwilling  to  take  a  position  that  would  require  me  or 
my  agent  to  say  to  a  man  who  offers  goods,  which  may  or 
may  not  be  ultimately  destined  to  Portland,  charging  full 
rates  thereon  to  San  Francisco,  that  he  must  refuse  them. 

Mr.  Shelby— It  has  been  done  right  along. 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  don't  think  we  could  legally  take  that 
position.  I  am  perfectly  willing  to  do  anything  that  will 
secure  a  fair  aud  square  maintenance  of  rates;  to  do  every- 
thing that  I  can  to  discourage  shipments  this  way,  but  I  do 
not  want  to  be  drawn  into  a  position  of  doing  what  the  law 
would  not  permit  us  to  do. 

Mr.  Oakes — I  do  not  think  you  will  ever  be  called  upon 
to  decide  a  question  of  that  kind  if  the  full  rates  are 
quoted.  But  during  the  demoralization,  which  lasted  two 
or  three  months,  we  proved  beyond  question  that  a  revenue 
of  $12,000  had  been  diverted,  which  was  due  to  the  fact  of 
very  low  rates  ruling  via  San  Francisco. 

Mr.  Stubbs — You  know  how  that  came  about.  We  charged 
Contract  rates  on  it.  As  soon  as  my  attention  was  called  to 
m.I  -aid  to  the  Commissioner  that  under  the  Contract  I  held 
that  we  had  the  right  to  do  that,  but  nevertheless,  when- 
ever he  wished  to  issue  an  order  or  ruling  to  the  effect 
that  full  tariff — Open  Tariff — should  be  charged  by  either 
u  business  known  to  be  destined  to  the  other's  territory, 
that  we  should  abide  by  it 


62 

Mr.  Oakes — I  take  it  to  be  the  sense  and  desire  of  the 
members  of  this  Association  to  have  an  absolute  territorial 
division,  and  with  that  understanding  I  am  willing  to  con- 
form to  any  arrangement  that  may  be  agreed  upou  which 
will  carry  out  that  idea. 

Mr.  Ristine  —  Let  me  ask  you  one  question:  Suppose  the 
Northern  line  should  be  disabled,  should  you  ask  that  the 
revenue  be  turned  over  then  ? 

Mr.  Oakes — I  should  be  willing  to  qualify  it,  that  when- 
ever either  line  is  blocked,  we  shall  recognize  such  physical 
fact. 

Mr.  Ristine— It  should  be  qualified. 

Mr.  Stubbs — Suppose  British  Columbia  merchants  should 
fear  something  of  that  kind,  and  send  freight  our  way,  and 
ive  should  charge  full  tariff  to  San  Francisco,  and  be  able  to 
absolutely  prove  to  you  that  we  did  not  seek  this  traffic, 
what  would  be  your  position  ?  When  we  had  the  scheme  of 
Contract  Rates  and  Open  Tariff,  it  was  very  difficult  to  control 
that  matter,  but  now  that  we  proceed  upon  one  tariff,  it 
seems  to  me  you  have  nothing  to  fear.  If  this  agreement  is 
had  we  shall  do  our  utmost  to  satisfy  you  in  the  matter  as  to 
good  faith,  and  discourage  it  wherever  we  can,  so  far  as  our 
interest  goes. 

»»        The  vote  stood: 

of  Southern 

.Lines.  Ayes— A.  T.  &  S.  ¥.,   A.  &  P.,    B.  &  M.,   C.  P.,  D.  &  R. 

G.,  D.  &  R.  G.  W.,  G.  H.  &  S.  A.,  S.  P.,  T.  &  P.— 9. 

Nays— N.  P.,  O.  R.  N.,  U.  P.— 3. 
Declared  lost. 

justice  of  Mr.  Stubbs  —I  do  not  know  but  what  we  might  just  as  well 
debatTJTpon  talk  right  out  in  meeting  on  this  proposition.  As  I  figured 
it,  taking  nine  months'  business,  as  figured  by  the  Commis- 
sioner, this  proposition,  which  has  just  been  voted  down 
because  it  requires  unanimity,  would  result  in  a  net  revenue 
to  the  Northern  Lines  of  6  /0  per  cent,  of  the  San  Francisco 


63 

revenue,  an  increase  of  four-tenths  per  cent.  I  have  heard 
indirectly  that  an  offer  was  made  I  believe  to  the  Union 
Pacific,  to  be  relieved  by  the  other  lines,  on  account  of 
its  Oregon  Short  Line,  of  its  proportion  of  whatever  sub- 
sidy was  paid,  and  that  on  the  allowed  6  percent,  amounted 
to  about  2  per  cent.  This  would  give  the  Northern  Pacific 
and  O.  R.  &  N,,  net  4  per  cent.  And  I  presume  that  the 
Northern  Pacific  and  O.  R.  &  N.  could  afford  to  go  a  step 
further,  and  say  they  would  also  be  allowed  the  excess  of  the  6 
per  cent.,  which  amount  would  practically  give  them  2  ^  per 
cent.  Now,  I  honestly  think  that  2  jj  per  cent,  or  thereabouts, 
is  all  that  the  Uu  on  Pacific  ought  to  ask,  even  if  it  can  con- 
sistently ask  anything  on  account  of  its  Oregon  Short  Line. 
In  the  first  place,  I  do  not  think  that  the  Union  Pacific  can 
legally  divert  a  pound  of  San  Francisco  business  after  once 
touching  its  line,  to  the  Oregon  Short  Line.  In  the  second 
place,  the  route  via  Portland  is  certainly  not  as  good  a 
route  as  the  one  direct  over  the  Central  Pacific.  It  could 
hardly  expect  to  do  business  via  Portland  to  San  Francisco, 
to  send  what  it  chose  that  way  and  to  use  the  Central  Pa- 
cific as  a  convenience.  I  give  this  simply  as  a  matter  of 
opinion,  as  though  I  were  occupying  a  disinterested  stand- 
point; that  it  would  have  to  use  the  Portland  route  for  all 
or  none  of  the  San  Francisco  business.  I  want  it  under- 
stood that  I  do  not  say  that  this  argument  indicates  any 
policy  on  the  part  of  the  Central  Pacific.  I  am  not  qualified 
to  speak  on  that  point,  Mr.  Kimball.  I  speak  as  though  I 
lined  no  relation  to  the  Central  Pacific  interest.  Inde- 
pendent of  that  proposition,  the  moment  the  Union  Pacific  at- 
tempts to  divert  San  Francisco  freight  via  Portland,  it  aban- 
dons a  good  line  for  a  bad  line.  Relatively,  it  certainly  in- 
creases its  time,  increases  its  transfers,  and  puts  itself  in  a 
very  disadvantageous  position  as  compared  with  the  Atchi- 
son and  Atlantic  &  Pacific  Line,  and  I  think  we  can  afford 
to  stand  on  the  eight  per  cent  proposition,  and  i  believe 
that  the  representatives  of  the  Union  Pacific  can  afford  to  sup- 
pOti  the  proposition,  and  justify  their  actiou  to  the  owners 
of  their  road. 


Legal  aspect 


64 

Mr.  Kimball — I  would  like  to  know  what  Mr.  Stubbs 
means  when  he  says  that  the  Union  Pacific,  or  Union  Pa- 
cific men,  cannot  ship  direct  to  San  Francisco  by  way  of  the 
Oregon  Short  Line,  after  freight  has  once  come  into  posses- 
sion of  that  company. 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  said  that  it  was  my  opinion  that  the  Union 
Pacific  had  no  legal  right  to  divert  freight  after  it  had  once 
come  on  to  the  Union  Pacific  Line,  destined  for  San  Fran- 
cisco, off  from  its  line  to  the  Oregon  Short  Line. 

Mr.  Kimball — I  do  not  see  the  force  of  your  argument. 
The  lines  in  question  are  built  under  one  charter,  officered 
by  the  same  men,  and  the  business  would  be  conducted 
upon  the  same  basis  as  any  other  west-bound  business  pass- 
ing over  our  line.  I  would  like  to  have  you  explain  how 
that  principle  would  apply  to  the  "Sunset  Route,"  to  the 
Deming  &  El  Paso  Route,  to  the  Mojave  Route. 

Mr.  Stubbs — The  position  of  the  two  lines  is  entirely  differ- 
ent— different  in  principle.  The  freight  that  the  "  Sunset  " 
Line  takes  up  does  not  touch  the  Central  Pacific  at  all  until 
it  is  handed  to  it;  and  the  Southern  Pacific  has  a  free  and 
independent  entrance  into  San  Francisco  by  contract. 

Explanation       ]\^r#  Kimball — I  might  as  well  explain,  while  I  am  about 

ot  Northern  °  L  * 

coSract6  *'»  another  thing.  It  may  not  be  known  to  the  members  of 
thedrlo?ct  *k's  Association,  but  it  is  nevertheless  the  fact,  that  the 
Union  Pacific,  the  Oregon  Short  Line  and  the  O.  R.  &  N. 
are  all  under  a  contract  by  which  the  O,  R.  &  N.  can  de- 
clare the  line  open  from  San  Francisco  to  Omaha  and 
Council  Bluffs  via  the  Union  Pacific,  and  we  are  bound  to 
keep  it  open  to  receive  and  handle  traffic  as  may  be  de-. 
livered  to  us.  Now,  the  O.  R.  &  N.  Co.  come  here  and  say 
to  this  Association,  "We  are  willing  to  compromise  the 
opportunity  we  have  to  take  traffic  by  this  line.  We  have 
served  no  notice  on  the  Union  Pacific  and  Oregon 
Short  Line  that  we  are  in  the  field  for  San  Francisco 
business,  and  we  are  not  prepared  to  do  it  until  we 
ascertain    whether    any    consideration    will    be    given     to 


65 

our  interest  by  a  subsidy."  And  I  say  this  now,  and 
I  know  it  will  turn  out  true,  that  unless  a  reasonable 
and  fair  consideration  is  given  that  interest,  we  shall  be 
called  upon  inside  of  thirty  days  to  open  the  lina.  There- 
fore we  must  weigh  tint  question  for  what  it  is  worth,  and 
meet  it  here  an  I  now.  I  am  not  here  begging  a  subsidy  for 
the  Oregon  Short  Line.  I  am  not  here  asking  what  is  an 
unreasonable  consideration  for  keeping  out  of  San  Fran- 
cisco, taking  the  situation  into  account.  Now,  it  is  for  us, 
as  the  Trans-Continental  Association,  to  weigh  carefully  all 
the  considerations  in  the  present  situation,  and  decide  fairly, 
and  make  an  agreement  and  live  up  to  it,  squarely.  If  we 
have  asked  too  much  we  will  take  less,  but  I  want  to  be  con- 
vinced that  the  subsidy  we  have  asked  is  too  much. 

Mr.  Stdbbs — I  did  not  understand,  Mr.  Kimball,  that  the 
O.  R.  &  N.  had  the  right  to  open  that  line.  I  supposed 
that  you  would  open  it  west-bound,  and  that  possibly  there 
might  be  a  reciprocal  understanding  that  they  open  it  east- 
bound.  I  have  read  the  contract,  but  have  not  noticed  the 
point  you  raise.  I  know  this,  however,  if  I  remember  the 
terms  of  the  contract  correctly,  that  the  O.  R.  &  N.  Co. 
get  nothing  in  addition  to  their  Portland  percentage  for  the 
service  performed  between  Portland  and  San  Francisco, 
and  so  far  as  San  Franoisco  business  is  concerned,  it  would 
be  done  based  on  the  revenue  they  get  out  of  Portland  busi- 
ness, they  doing  the  work  to  San  Francisco  for  nothing,  and 
I  think  they  would  hardly  enforce  the  opening  of  the  line 
on  such  conditions.  We  do  not  understand  that  the  O.  R. 
.-  N.  urge  this  point.  We  do  understand  that  the  Union 
Pacific  and  Oregon  Short  Line  urge  this  point.  We  would 
not  have  any  difficulty  in  getting  along  with  the  O.  R.  &  N. 
if  it  was  not  for  the  Union  Pacific. 

Mr.  GtODDABD — I  can  only  speak  for  our  own  Company, 
that  so  far  as  the  subsidy  for  the  Northern  Lines  is  con- 
cerned, I  have  gone  beyond  my  limit  already,  and  I  cannot 
consider  auy  proposition  which  would  increase  that  amount. 


A.  T.  k  s.  F. 

ultimatum. 


Mr.  Oakes — T  move  fchit  we  adjourn  uutil  to  morrow  morn- 
ing at  10  o'clock. 

Seconded  by  Mr.  Miller. 

Carried. 


Friday,  January  l&h — Morning  Session. 

loadS/etc.!  The  Commissioner — Before  the  regular  business  of  this 
ra?"on.  01  meeting  is  taken  up  I  should  like  to  present  a  telegram  I 
have  received  from  Mr.  Midgley,  asking  for  a  rate  which  I 
should  prefer  that  the  Association  decide.  He  asks 
rate  on  a  Ballast  Unloader,  2800  pounds,  and  on  one  Steam 
Shovel,  thirty  tons,  both  on  their  own  wheels,  Chicago  to 
San  Francisco.  It  has  been  suggested  that  the  Excavator 
rate  be  applied  to  the  Steam  Shovel,  which  would  give  a 
revenue  west  of  the  River  of  $435,  and  on  Ballast  Unloader 
Empty  Flat  Car  rate,  both  transported  on  their  own  wheels. 

Mr.  Stubbs  was  of  the  opinion  that  the  Association  does 
not  want  them  on  their  own  wheels,  and  that  they  should 
take  a  pretty  good  rate,  as  it  could  not  be  considered  an  ex- 
periment, as  considerable  trouble  had  previously  proceeded 
from  the  haulage  of  similar  traffic. 

Mr.  Ristine  proposed  telegraphing  Mr.  Midgley  for  the 
dimensions  of  the  running  gear,  as  they  generally  had  very 
small  wheels,  and  it  was  necessary  that  they  should  come 
inside  the  limits  prescribed  by  the  classification. 

Mr.  Stubbs  stated  that  he  had  no  objection,  provided  they 
were  on  regular  freight  car  trucks  and  of  such  dimensions 
as  could  be  safely  transported  over  the  grades  and  curves  of 
the  Central  or  Southern  Pacific  roads,  and  if  the  outside 
measurement  would  permit  their  safe  passage  of  the  plat- 
.  forms,  snow-sheds  and  tunnels.  He,  however,  desired  it 
understood  that  the  Central  Pacific  reserved  the  right  of 
inspection  at  El  Paso,  Deming,  Mojave  or  Ogden,  and  of 
refusal  if  found  to  be  inconsistent  with  the  requirements; 
further,  that  the  guarantee  of  rates  would  be  considered  as 
abrogated. 


67 

It  was  agree  1  to  forward  to  Commissioner  Midgley  the 
following  telegram : 

Allowing eighteen,  th  msand  pound*  for  ritmin?  gear,  will  aocept  Machinery 
rate  carload  on  balance  Steam  Shovel,  provided  trucks  under  same  will  pass 
inspection  at  Missouri  River  and  at  Central  and  Southern  Pacific  eastern  ter- 
mi  d,  and  provided  also  that  the  dimensions  are  within  the  limits  prescribed 
in  the  classification.  Rate  on  Ballast  Unloader,  two  hundred  dollars,  Missouri 
River  to  San  Francisco,  subject  to  same  inspection. 

The  Commissioner — Are   there  any  suggestions  to  offer  Northern 

,  -i       >  .  ,  .  ,    Lines"  Sub- 

npon  the  question  01  yesterday  s   session — the  question  of  sidy;  debate 
subsidizing  the  Northern   Lines?     Mr.  Kimball,  have  you 
anything  to  offer  ? 

Mr.  Kimball— Is  there  any  motion  or  resolution  before 
the  meeting? 

The  Commissioner — No,  sir;  only  the  matter  of  terms  upon 
wh'ch  the  Northern  Lines  will  consent  to  occupy  the  north- 
ern territory.  The  first  section  of  the  resolution  upon  the 
Order  of  procedure  has  not  yet  been  disposed  of. 

Mr.  Stubbs — Mr.  Chairman,  we  have  had  under  considera-  prop^  to 
tion  this  question  of  terms  of  the  territorial  division  between  £S^ESly 
the  Oregon  Lines  and  the  California   Lines.     We  seem  to  Jesouuion. 
have  come  to  a  stop.     Perhaps  it  would  be  a  good  idea  to 
let  the  contestants  get  a  little  breath.     We  might  afford  to 
take  up  another  part  o^  that  resolution,  and  I  would  move 

That  we  consider  the  question  as  to  division  of  the  pooled  earnings  as 
en  the  lines  forming  the  Eastern  Pool,  east  of  Ogden,  Albuquerque,  El 
Paso  and  Deming. 

This  in  order  to  invite  suggestions,  or  to  agree  upon  some 
plan  as  to  how  these  divisions  shall  be  determined,  in  the 
event  that  ultimately  all  the  other  questions  are  disposed  of. 

Not  seconded. 

Mr.  Ristise  offered  the  following:  Beaoiution 

vo  fix  8ub- 
Resolved,  That  the  Lines  known  as  the  Southern  or  California  Lines  shal1    uidy  for 
pay  to  the  Oregon  Short  Line,  Northern  Pacific  and   Oregon  Railway  &    Lines,  and 
Navigation  Companies  jointly   in  full  of  their  shares,  jointly  and  severally.    £''k»|° 
of  the  entire  California  business,  eight  per  cent,  of  the  earnings  accruing  to   Seepage  C9. 


68 

the  said  Southern  or  California  Lines  on  business  betwean  San  Francisco  and 
points  east  of  the  97th  meridian  of  longitude  on  the  East,  except  business 
received  from  or  delivered  to  the  O.  &  O.  S.  S.  Co.  or  the  P.  M.  S.  S.  Co., 
it  being  understood  that  the  Oregon  Short  Line,  Northern  Pacific  and  0.  R. 
&  N.  Co.'s  share  in  all  subsidies  to  be  paid  to  the  P.  M.  S.  S.  Co.  or  others, 
in  accordance  with  Section  VII,  and  the  Commissioner's  expenses,  in  accord  - 
with  Section  XII;  and  the  O.  S.  Line,  N.  P.  and  O.  R.  &N.  Companies  shall 
pay  to  the  Southern  or  California  Lines  in  full  of  their  shares  of  the  entire 
Oregon  and  Washington  Territory  business,  eight  per  cent,  on  busines  between 
Portland  and  p  nnts  east  of  the  97th  meridian  of  longitude  on  the  East. 

Seconded  by  Mr.  Eccles. 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  would  like  to  ask  if  that  resolution  does 
not  change  the  proposition  of  yesterday  from  applying  the 
eight  per  cent,  to  San  Francisco  business  only  and  to  Port- 
land business  only,  to  the  eutire  California  business,  and 
the  entire  Washington  Territory  business,  etc.? 

Mr.  Bistine— I  think  not. 

Mr.  Stubbs — It  seems  to  be  worded  so  as  to  take  care  of 
the  expenses  of  the  Commissioner,  and  subsidy  of  the 
Pacific  Mail. 

Amendment       Mr.  Oakes — I  move  an  amendment,   by  adding  after  the 
batee£  de"   word  "  Portland"- 

Save  and  excepting  such  business  as  may  be  destined  to  or  coming  from 
points  reached  by  the  Occidental  &  Oriental  and  Pacific  Mail  Steamship 
Companies. 

The  object  of  the  amendment  is  to  provide  that  the  Ore- 
gon Lines  shall  not  pay  into  the  pool  revenue  from  business 
from  China  and  Japan.  Suppose  we  should  have  a  steam- 
ship line  before  the  end  of  the  year.  We  should  not  want 
to  put  it  in  unless  you  did. 

Mr.  Stubbs  asked  if  that  was  not  covered  by  the  exclusion 
of  British  Columbia,  etc.  ? 

Mr.  Oakes  called  attention  to  the  fact  that  other  Califor- 
nia business  is  excluded,  which  should  be  considered  as  off- 
setting the  British  Columbia  and  other  exclusions. 


69 

Mr.  Sttbbs  argued  that  none  of  the  points  excluded  in 
California  could  be  considered  on  the  same  plane  and  in  the 
same  sense  as  Tac<>ma,  Seattle  and  other  Northern  points, 
which  are  excluded. 

Mr.  Oakes  thought  such  points  could  be  reached  by  the 
Pacific  Coast  Steamship  Company,  and  that  therefore  one 
should  be  considered  as  offsetting  the  other. 

Mr.  Goddard  asked  for  the  understanding. 

Mr.  Oakes — My  understanding  of  that  exception  is  this. 
Two  steamship  lines  belong  to  or  are  controlled  by  the  Cen- 
tral and  Union  Pacific  Companies,  hence  we  cannot  properly 
participate  in  tnat  business.  On  the  other  hand,  we  may  have 
steamships  engaged  in  the  same  business  which  we  may  con- 
trol, and  we  could  not  consider  that  the  Southern  Lines 
could  legitimately  participate  in  that  business  except  by 
mutual  agreement. 

Mr.  Towne — Would  not  that  be  a  proper  subject  to  take 
up  when  you  are  ready  to  put  the  steamers  on  ? 

Mr.  Oakes— You  cover  it  so  far  as  the  Southern  Lines 
are  concerned  in  the  first  part  of  the  resolution.  You  should 
eliminate  it. 

Mr.  Stubbs — T  think  you  will  find  that  this  matter  was  de- 
bated at  the  meeting  here  a  year  ago.  We  would  be  in  ex- 
actly the  same  boat  if  you  should  put  on  a  steamship  line. 

Mr.  Towne — I  concede  the  point,  and  am  willing  that 
it  shall  be  included  in  the  resolution. 

The  proposition  was  accepted  by  the  authors  of  the  resolu-  Tm 
tion  and  included  therein.  con.. 

The  Commi— iM\Kit— The  resolution  now  reads  as  follows: 

Resolved,  That  the  lines  known  as  the  Southern  or  California  Lines  shall   Resolution 
pay  to  the  Oregon  Short  Line,  Northern  Pacific  and  Oregon   Railway  &    ■*  fl'ial|y 

nation  Companies  jointly,  in  full  of  their  shares,  jointly  and  severally, 
of  the  entire  California  business,  eight  per  cent  of  the  earnings  accruing  to 
the  said  Southern  or  California  Lines  on  business  between  San  Francisco 


70 

and  points  east  of  the  97th  meridian  of  longitude  on  the  East,  except  busi- 
ness received  from  or  delivered  to  the  Occidental  &  Oriental  Steamship  Com- 
pany or  the  Pacific  Mail  Steamship  Company.  It  being  understood  that  the 
Oregon  Short  Line,  Northern  Pacific  and  Oregon  Kail  way  &  Navigation 
Companies  share  in  all  subsidies  to  be  paid  to  the  Pacific  Mail  Steamship 
Company  or  others,  in  accordance  with  Section  VII,  and  the  Commissioner's 
expenses,  in  accordance  with  Section  XII;  and  the  Oregon  Short  Line,  North- 
ern Pacific  and  Oregon  Kailway  &  Navigation  Companies  shall  pay  to  the 
Southern  or  California  Lines,  in  full  of  their  shares  of  the  entire  Oregon  and 
Washington  Territory  business,  eight  per  cent,  on  business  between  Portland 
and  points  east  of  the  97th  meridian  of  longitude  on  the  East,  save  and  ex- 
cepting business  passing  through  Portland  to  or  from  Tran9-Pacific  ports 
reached  by  the  Pacific  Mail  or  Occidental  &  Oriental  Steamship  Companies. 

Carried  unanimously. 

o.  r.  &  n.  Mr.  Muir — Mr.  Commissioner,  it  is  understood  of  course 
tfcipate*n  that  of  the  proportion  of  eight  per  cent,  that  is  paid  on 
paidtoy  Portland  business  by  the  Northern  to  the  Southern  Lines, 
Lines;  de-  the  O.  B.  &  N.  will  get  its  ocean  proportion  of  that  percent- 
age, San  Francisco  to  Portland.  It  forms  part  of  the  line 
by  which  you  get  that  eight  per  cent. 

Mr.  Goddard — Do  you  mean  the  proportion  you  receive 
in  connection  with  the  Oregon  Short  Line  ? 

Mr.  Mum — I  mean  our  proportion  of  the  eight  per  cent, 
that  is  paid  to  the  Southern  Lines  on  Portland  business. 

Mr.  Stubbs — He  means  like  this:  The  eight  per  cent,  that 
is  subdivided  between  the  Oregon  Kailway  &  Navigation, 
the  Oregon  Short  Line  and  Northern  Pacific  Companies — 
he  credits  a  portion  of  that  to  the  Steamer  Line  of  the  O. 
B.  &  N.  between  Portland  and  San  Francisco — and  says 
upon  reversal  of  the  proposition  which  provides  that  the 
Northern  Lines  pay  eight  per  cent,  to  the  Southern  Lines, 
this  Steamship  Line,  Portland  to  San  Francisco,  must  be 
regarded  as  part  of  the  Southern  Line.  He  wants  to  be  on 
both  sides  of  the  fence.  I  do  not  look  at  it  in  that  way 
at  all.  We  are  treating  with  the  Northern  Pacific,  the  Ore- 
gon Short  Line  and  the  O.  B.  &  N.  as  rail  lines  and  com- 
petitors, but  not  with  your  Steamship  Line. 


71 

Mr.  MuiB — We  pay  you  eight  per  cent,  to  keep  out  of 
Port-laud.  We  form  part  of  that  line,  and  should  get  our 
percentage.     The  O.  R.  &  N.  is  an  established  line. 

Mr.  Stubbs— In  the  same  way  the  Central  Pacific  could 
go  in  and  put  on  their  steamers.  I  think  it  would  do  it 
uuder  the  circumstances  if  you  are  going  to  reason  in  that 
way, 

Mr.  Muir — When  that  question  comes  up  we  might  divide 
that  ocean  percentage.  Iu  the  meanwhile  we  are  an  estab- 
lished line,  and  should  have  our  proportion. 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  say  that  you  are  not  the  only  line — that 
there  is  an  independent  line  in  that  Northern  business.  We 
set  off  to  you  the  British  Columbia  business  as  well  as 
Portland,  do  we  not?  or  to  these  Northern  Lines,  and 
this  is  part  of  the  consideration  for  setting  that  off.  Now, 
there  is  an  independent  line  running  between  here  and 
British  Columbia — sailing  vessels  controlled  by  merchants 
hero. 

Mr.  Muir— You  set  that  Northern  territory  off  to  us,  and 
we  do  not  go  down  to  your  Southern  ports,  which  we  could 
easily  do. 

Mr.  Stubbs— If  you  will  read  the  resolution,  you  do  not 
accept  eight  per  cent.,  or  we  do  not  pay  you  eight  per  cent., 
for  keeping  out  of  San  Francisco  proper  only.  We  pay  you 
eight  per  cent,  for  keeping  out  of  the  entire  California  busi- 
ness. Likewise  you  pay  us  eight  per  cent.,  not  to  keep  out 
of  Portland  only,  but  to  keep  out  of  the  Oregon,  Washing- 
ton Territory  and  British  Columbia  business.  Now,  there 
are  independent  lines.  If  we  should  regard  the  O.  R.  &  N. 
steamer  line  as  a  part  of  this  through  line,  and  entitled  to  a 
share  of  this  eight  per  cent.,  I  do  not  see  why  we  should  not 
regard  every  sailing  vessel  passing  between  here  and  Port- 
land as  participants  in  that  eight  per  cent.  I  do  not  know 
herald  not  regard  the  steamers  of  the  Central  Pacific 
as  participants. 


72 

Mr.  Goddard — Did  the  resolution  carry? 

The  Commissioner — Yes! 

Informal  discussion. 

Mr.  Stubbs — We  did  not  have  any  share  in  the  subdivis- 
ion of  the  six  per  cent,  between  the  O.  R.  &  N.  and  Northern 
Pacific.  We  left  that  to  yourselves.  We  will  have  a  little 
private  seance  with  Mr.  Prescott  after  this. 

Mr.  Oakes — I  was  going  to  suggest  that  this  discussion  had 
better  be  deferred. 

Mr.  Eistine— I  suppose  Mr.  Muir  would  be  perfectly  will- 
ing to  pool  the  earnings  he  gets  from  the  Oregon  Short  Line 
on  San  Francisco  business. 

Mr.  Towne — We  are  going  to  ask  you  and  Mr.  Goddard  to 
come  in  on  this  Pool  down  south,  on  Pacific  Coast  ports. 

No  action  was  had  upon  Mr.  Muir's  claim. 

upon  the  Mr.  Goddard — I  presume  that  the  next  business  before  the 

question  of  . 

two  Pools      meeting  is  the  second  clause  of  the  resolution. 

between  the 
Southern 

Lines.  Mr.  bTUBBS — 1  will  renew  my  motion — 

That  we  proceed  to  discuss  the  methods  of  distribution  of  the  earnings 
between  the  Lines  east  of  Ogden,  Albuquerque,  Deming  and  El  Paso. 

Mr.  Goddard — Before  proceeding  on  that,  I  would  like  to 
ask  whether  the  Western  Lines  will  accept  for  themselves 
such  share  as  the  Eastern  Lines  may  determine  upon  for  them- 
selves in  consideration  of  their  natural  connections  ? 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  might  as  well  answer  that  by  an  explana- 
tion which  it  seems  to  me  would  be  conclusive.  The  Cen- 
tral Pacific,  the  Southern  Pacific  and  the  Atlantic  &  Pacific 
Companies  have  now  a  pool  of  earnings  that  includes  all 
the  earnings  subject  to  this  Pool.  It  stands  like  this:  that 
notwithstanding  the  settlement  wThich  we  have  made  on  the 
three  months  ending  with  December  31,  there  is  still  to  be 
another  settlement  as  between  the  three  roads  upon  an  agree- 
ment entered  into  previous  to  the  October  1st  Agreement  of 


73 

the  Trans-Continental  Association.  I  should  like  to  see 
that  modified  as  they  have  more  than  they  are  entitled  to. 
Whether  it  will  be  necessary  to  modify  it,  or  whether  we 
can  get  a  modification  of  it,  is  another  question;  but  because 
of  the  subsistence  of  that  Agreement  I  do  not  see  that  that 
part  of  the  question  need  delay  the  proceedings  as  to  the 
division  of  the  earnings  between  the  lines  east  of  these 
termini,  it  being  understood,  however,  that  a  copy  of  the 
Agreement,  either  as  it  is  or  as  it  shall  be  made  between 
these  three  Western  Lines  shall  be  filed  with  the  Commis- 
sioner who  shall  have  jurisdiction  over  the  Western  Pool, 
and  a  further  understanding  that  when  any  modification  is 
made,  or  if  they  fail  to  agree  upon  a  continuance  of  the 
present  Agreement  or  upon  modification  thereof,  that  that  of 
course  will  upset  the  whole  result  of  our  conference  here. 

The  Commissioner — I  would  like  to  ask  a  question  relative 
to  the  subsidies  and  expenses.  Are  they  to  be  determined 
as  heretofore  ? 

Mr.  Stubbs — As  I  understand  it,  the  object  of  that  reso- 
lution is  simply  making  a  division  of  the  territory  into  two 
Pools,  as  between  lines  East  and  West  of  the  termini  named, 
but  that  every  expense  which  is  a  charge  against  the  lines, 
as  a  whole,  west  of  St.  Paul  and  west  of  Missouri  River, 
Galveston  and  Houston,  will  be  ascertained  and  subdivided 
precisely  as  it  has  been  in  the  past,  unless  we  should  sub- 
sequently agree  upon  a  different  mode  of  dividing  them, 
and  I  do  not  think  it  will  interfere  with  your  accounting  in 
any  way.  You  have  to  do  the  very  same  thing  under  one 
Pool  as  you  would  have  to  do  under  the  two.  I  do  not 
think  it  would  increase  the  expense  a  particle. 

Mr.   Hi -tim;— I  thought  that  was  covered  the  other  day — 
that  the  three  Western  Companies  shall  be  severed  only  so 
s  the  percentages  are  concerned. 

Mi.  K  imp.  all— Mr.  Chairman,  if  we  should  make  declare-  J^'j 
ti'.u    here    that  in  tin;  division  <>!'  Trans-Continental  busi- 
ness  we  shall    treat   the  business   west  of  the  points   of  £*u*JJf5£J 

junction   as    the    business    of    the    Central    and    Southern   J^^S 

logs. 


Pacific  Railroads  agreeing  among  ourselves  to  form  two  or 
three  General  Lines,  one  by  way  of  Ogden,  taking  in  all 
the  connections  of  the  Central  Pacific  east  of  that  point, 
another  by  way  of  Albuquerque  and  its  connections  east  of 
that  point  of  junction,  and  a  third  would  be  designated  as 
the  Deming  &  El  Paso  Line,  taking  the  connections  of  the 
Southern  Pacific  east  of  those  points.  We  can  declare 
such  amount  of  the  total  business  of  the  Trans-Continental 
Association  as  shall  belong  to  one  or  to  each  of  these 
three  Eastern  Lines.  Then  the  lines  east  of  the  point 
of  junction  can  agree  among  themselves  as  to  the  sub- 
division of  what  is  left  of  the  earnings  of  each  Line,  after 
deducting  the  regular  proportions  used  by  the  Southern 
and  Central  Pacific  roads.  I  think  we  .shall  simplify  the 
problem  very  much  by  agreeing  to  make  these  two  or  three 
general  Lines  of  each  system. 

Mr.  Stubbs — Let  me  see  if  I  understand  that  proposition. 
That  there  shall  be  a  grand  division  of  the  tonnage  as  be- 
tween the  three  Lines,  the  Northern  Line  called  the  Central 
Pacific  Line,  the  Central  Line  called  the  Atlantic  &  Pacific 
Line  and  the  Southern  called  the  Southern  Line.  Now,  as- 
suming for  the  purpose  of  illustration  only,  that  we  should 
declare  that  the.  total  business  shall  be  divided  equally 
between  these  three  Lines,  that  would  give  to  the  Central 
Pacific  Line  one-third,  to  the  Atlantic  &  Pacific  Line  one- 
third,  and  the  Southern  Pacific  Line  one-third.  It  would 
follow  then  that  the  connections  of  the  Central  Pacific  would 
be  entitled  to  one-third  of  the  total  business.  Now,  in  case 
it  went  to  arbitration,  or  in  case  you  undertake  to  settle  it 
here,  the  questions  would  be :  First.  What  are  the  true 
connections  of  the  Central  Pacific  ?  Second.  What  shall 
be  the  division  of  this  one-third  of  the  gross  earnings 
between  the  several  connections  of  the  Central  Pacific? 
It  would  only  be  required  first  to  determine  what  are  the 
connections  of  the  Atlantic  &  Pacific;  then  what  shall  be 
the  subdivision  of  this  one-third  between  the  connections 


75 

of  the  Atlantic  &  Pacific,  and  likewise  for  the  Southern 
Pacific.  I  think  that  could  be  done  without  interfering 
with  the  plan  for  two  Pools  at  all. 

Mr.  Kimball— I  make  that  suggestion,  Mr.  Chairman, 
with  the  understanding  that  the  total  business  of  the  Trans- 
Continental  Association  is  as  absolutely  under  the  control 
of  that  Association  as  if  we  pooled  our  earnings  on  the 
basis  of  the  Tucker  award.  It  is  only  a  question  of  how 
we  shall  divide  the  revenues  accruing  under  the  Trans-Con- 
tinental Association.  On  that  proposition  you  would  have 
to  determine  first,  what  would  be  the  division  between  the 
three  terminal  Lines. 

The  Commissioner— Well,  under  that  last  proposition 
would  you  consider  it  the  proper  thing  to  do  in  dividing 
to  take,  say  46  per  cent,  or  the  Ogden  percentage  on  all  these 
different  routes  ? 

Mr.  StUbbs— -No.  The  Central  Pacific  and  its  connections 
would  divide  on  their  regular  basis.  It  is  not  possible  for 
its  connections  to  diyide  until  they  know  what  they  have  to 
divide. 

Mr.  Kimball— It  would  be  54  and  46  via  Ogden. 

The  Commissioner — My  idea  was,  what  are  the  different 
Terminal  roads  to  accept  of  the  entire  business  ? 

Mr.  Stubbs — Suppose  you  should  set  off  to  the  Central 
Pacific  one  third  V 

The  Commissioner— The  supposition  is  not  a  good  one. 
You  have  not  agreed  on  that. 

Mi.  Si  in  s— Suppose  the  Central  Pacific  Line  between 
Kansas  City  and  San  Francisco  should  earn  $100,000. 
Now,  in  the  division  of  that  business,  $46,000  would  go  to 
the  Central  Pacific  road,  and  54  per  cent,  to  the  connections 
of  that  road.  The  54  per  cent,  would  then  be  divided  be- 
tween the  Union  Pacific,  the  D.  <fe  R.  G.  and  the  connec- 
tions of  the  D.  &  R.  G.     If  they  should  agree  among  them- 


selves  that  the  Union  Pacific  take  half,  and  the  D.  &  E.  G. 
and  connections  take  half,  there  would  be  27  per  cent,  to 
each  route;  then  the  percentage  of  the  D.  &  R.  Gr.  would  be 
divided  between  itself  and  connections,  and  their  regular 
percentages  would  prevail,  I  presume.  Now  then,  if  that 
Line  were  "short,"  and  the  other  general  Lines  would  have 
to  pay  to  them  say  $100,000,  the  first  division  of  that 
$100,000  would  be  46  per  cent,  to  the  Central  and  54  per 
cent,  to  its  eastern  connections,  then  that  54  per  cent,  would 
be  divided  in  the  manner  I  have  explained. 

The  Commissioner — I  did  not  understand  the  proposition. 
I  thought  the  three  Terminal  Lines  were  to  take  100  per 
cent,  and  divide  among  themselves.  For  illustration,  that  the 
C.  P.  would  take  40,  the  Southern  Pacific  30,  and  the  At- 
lantic &  Pacific  30  of  the  entire  business. 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  do  not  understand  that  that  is  the  inten- 
tion that  the  three  Terminal  Lines  shall  settle  the  question 
of  division  between  themselves.  That  is  a  matter  these 
connections  would  have  some  voice  in.  It  would  be  a  mat- 
ter for  the  Association  to  determine.  For  example,  if  a 
proposition  was  made  here  to  divide,  by  giving  the  Central 
Pacific  one-half,  and  25  per  cent,  each  to  the  Atlantic  & 
Southern  Pacific  Lines,  that  proposition  would  have  to  be 
submitted  to  vote  of  the  entire  Association. 

After  an  extended  informal  discussion,  recess  was  taken 
until  2  p.  m. 


Friday,  January  16th — Afternoon  Session. 
Meeting  convened  at  2  p.  m. 
All  members  represented, 
commis-  'j;he  Commissioner — The  question  as  to  the  formation  of 

sioner's  re-  i  1  -r  •  •  -i  i 

marks.         two  Pools,  as  between   the  Southern   Lines,  is  still    open. 
Mr.  Kimball,  have  you  any  solution  to  offer? 


Mr.  KlMBALL— I  would  offer  the  following: 

Resolved,  That  in  dividing  the  revenues  of  this  Association,  after  January   Resolutions 

31 ,  1885,  there  shall  be  assigned  to  each  of  three  General  Lines  or  Routes,    for  division 

by  mutual  agreement  or  arbitration,  its  share  of  the  total  earnings  from  Trans-   il^fon*?0 

Continental  traffic.  General 

lines  and 

Resolvt  d,  That  such  lines  shall  be  constituted  as  follows  :  discussion. 

thereon. 

First — The  Central  Pacific  Railroad  and  its  connections  east  of  Ogden. 
Second— The  Southern  Pacific  and  Atlantic  &  Pacific  Railroads  and  connec- 
tions east  of  Albuquerque. 
Third— The  Southern  Pacific  Railroad  and  its  connections  east  of  Deming 

and  El  Paso. 

• 

Resolved,  That  when  these  general  divisions  of  traffic  have  been  so  ascer- 
tained, the  lines  west  of  the  above  named  points  of  junction  shall  take  their 
regular  percentages  for  the  division  of  through  rates,  in  dividing  the  award  to 
each  geueral  route. 

Resolved,  That  such  lines  as  constitute  the  portion  of  each  of  the  General 
Lines  east  of  said  junction  points,  shall  at  the  earliest  practicable  date  agree 
upon  the  percentages  for  their  respective  routes.  Failing  to  agree  on-  or  be- 
fore January  20th,  these  percentages  shall  be  fixed  by  arbitration,  the  Arbitra- 
tor to  be  agreed  upon  before  January  21,  1885. 

Seconded  by  Mr.  Goddard. 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  would  like  to  know  whether  that  does  not 
have  the  effect  of  a  substitute  to  the  second  portion  of  the 
resolution  which  was  passed  the  other  day,  practically 
abandoning  the  idea  of  two  Pools,  and  providing  for 
one  general  settlement?  If  it  does,  I  do  not  think 
we  can  vote  for  it  When  Mr.  Kimball  spoke  of  that 
plan,  in  fact  when  I  read  the  resolution,  I  supposed  that 
the  idea  was  simply  to  declare  in  the  judgment  of  the  Asso- 
ciation what  portion  of  the  total  traffic  was  due  to  each  of 
-e  General  Lines;  and,  so  far  as  that  goes,  I  could  see  no 
objection  to  it.  But  if  it  is  intended  to  carry  it  further,  so 
that  the  earnings  of  all  members  of  the  Association  will  go 
into  one  pot  and  be  subdivided,  it  seems  to  me  that  we  shall 
have  to  object  to  it.  We  believe  that  the  true  way  of 
handling  this  business  is  for  the  three  Companies  forming 
the  Western  Termini  of  all  these  lines,  to  agree  among 
tit*  mselves,  as  they  practically  have  agreed,  as  to  the 
division  of  their  revenue  between  them.     Then,  leaving  it 


78 


to  the  lines  east  of  these  three  Terminal  Lines  to  determine 
for  themselves  how  they  will  divide  their  gross  earnings 
under  the  Contract.  I  am  free  to  confess  that  I  cannot  see 
how  there  need  be  any  conflict  between  the  two  resolutions, 
provided  we  still  adhere  to  the  idea  of  two  Pools,  east  and 
west  of  Ogden,  Albuquerque,  Deming  and  El  Paso,  pre- 
cisely as  was  made  under  the  Agreement  of  last  October, 
covering  Pacific  Coast  business  west  of  Chicago.  It  was 
understood  that  there  were  to  be  two  Pools;  they  were  to  be 
inter-dependent.  I  still  adhere  to  the  original  proposition  of 
two  Pools  as  being  the  simplest  and  the  best  method  of  hand- 
ling the  business.  I  would  offer  a  substitute  for  Mr.  Kim- 
ball's resolution,   one  that  I  hope  Mr.  Kimball  will  accept. 

Resolved,  That  pursuant  to  the  resolution  which  provides  that  two  Pools 
shall  be  made,  the  Association  proceed  to  discuss  the  percentage  of  distribu- 
maintafnijL   ^on  °^  earnings  between  the  lines  which  compose  the  Eastern  Pool. 

Resolved,  That  this  Association  now  declare  three  general  divisions  of  the 
traffic  subject  to  the  Eastern  Pool. 

First— The  proportion  due  the  connections  of  the  Central  Pacific  Kailroad. 

Second— The  proportion  due  the  connections  of  the  Atlantic  &  Pacific 
Kailroad. 

Third — The  proportion  due  the  connections  of  the  Southern  Pacific 
Kailroad. 

Resolved,  That  the  subdivision  of  the  award  to  each  set  of  lines  above  de- 
scribed be  determined  by  agreement  between  themselves  at  the  earliest 
practicable  date.  Failing  to  agree  in  any  or  in  all  cases,  on  or  before  January 
20,  1885,  the  question  shall  be  referred  to  arbitration;  the  Arbitrator  to  be 
agreed  upon  on  or  before  January  21,  1885. 


Substitute 
for  resolu- 
tion— 


original 
proposition 
tor  two 
Pools. 


Discussion 
thereon. 


Mr.  Kimball— I  do  not  like,  Mr.  Chairman,  the  proposi- 
tion to  make  two  separate  and  independent  Pools.  I  be- 
lieve the  business  of  the  Trans-Continental  Association  will 
be  better  conducted,  and  the  revenues  better  preserved,  by 
one  strong  organization. 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  do  not  know  why  that  objection  is  neces- 
sary, by  the  statement  that  it  is  the  intention  that  these 
Pools  are  only  separate  in  the  sense  that  there  are  different 
sets  of  divisions,  or  may  be  different  sets  of  divisions 
covering   the  distribution   under  it.      They  will   both  be 


79 

subject  to  the  Trans-Continental  Association,  both  be  sub- 
ject to  the  rulings  of  the  Commissioner,  or  of  an  Arbitrator, 
in  case  we  have  none.  The  accounting  will  be  done  by  the 
same  Commissioner's  office;  and  I  do  not  know  why  it  is 
not  going  to  strengthen  instead  of  weaken  the  organization. 
If  we  have  these  two  sets  of  Pools,  or  these  two  Pools,  it 
seems  to  me  that  the  Western  Pool  will  be  a  very  simple 
matter,  and  can  be  very  easily  maintained,  and  will  be  very 
rigidly  maintained.  Moreover,  I  think  that  it  will  stiffen  the 
backs  of  the  Eastern  connections,  and  hold  them  up  to  a 
rigid  maintenance  of  rates,  a  great  deal  better  than  to 
have  one  Pool.  Further,  you  must  not  forget  what  I  have  fraafi0.11" 
told  you,  that  there  is  already  in  existence  a  separate  and  Rand's',  p. 
distinct  Contract  as  between  the  Central  Pacific  and  Atlantic 
&  Pacific  Companies. 

Mr.  Ristine — That  is  outside  of  the  Trans-Continental 
Association.  These  gentlemen  know  nothing  about  that 
Pool;  and  further  it  is  outside  of  their  interests. 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  desire  that  they  shall  know  it.  There  is 
already  a  Pool  between  the  Atlantic  &  Pacific  and  Southern 
Pacific  Companies,  and  I  think  there  always  will  have  to  be. 
Now,  I  don't  see  how  we  can  go  into  a  Pool  such  as  has  ex- 
isted during  the  last  three  months,  making  one  settlement 
of  our  earnings  under  the  Trans-Continental  Pool,  and  then 
make  another  settlement  with  the  Atlantic  &  Pacific  Com- 
pany; and  I  think  when  it  comes  down  to  "brass  tacks," 
you  will  find  we  won't  do  it.  It  is  a  sort  of  double  action 
for  us,  and  we  don't  know  where  we  stand. 

Mr.  Ristine— Why  can't  we  do  as  Mr.  Kimball  suggests — 
have  one  general  Pool,  and  let  the  other  Pool  be  independent 
between  us  ? 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  have  just  told  you  why.  We  don't  pro- 
pose to  have  two  settlements  on  the  same  business. 

Mr.  Ristine— I  would  remind  you  that  the  Pool  to  which 
you  refer  takes  in  some  local  business. 


80 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  do  not  want  to  settle  under  a  Pool  with  the 
Trans-Continental  Association  in  which  the  Eastern  con- 
nections of  the  Central  and  Southern  Pacific  Roads  are  in- 
volved; and  then  after  that  is  all  cleaned  up,  and  we  think 
we  have  a  certain  amount,  to  find  that  we  have  another  set- 
tlement to  make  with  Mr.  Ristine. 

Mr.  Ristine— You  have  to  do  it;  you  cannot  include  the 
local  business  in  that  Pool. 

Mr.  Stubbs— If  the  accounts  of  through  and  local  busi- 
ness are  kept  entirely  separate,  as  they  have  been  under  the 
old  Pool,  on  December  3 1st  we  should  not  know  where  we 
stood.  If,  after  making  settlement  with  the  Trans-Conti- 
nental Association,  and  we  think  all  parties  have  put  in  their 
accounts,  and  later  on  find  that  we  have  to  make  settlement 
with  the  Atlantic  &  Pacific,  we  would  not  know  where  we 
stood;  and  both  these  Pools  cover  in  part  the  same  busi- 
ness, that  is  to  say,  the  through  business  is  subject  to  both 
pools.  I  think  it  is  a  matter  that  the  Association  ought  to 
consider.  It  does  not  affect  their  treasury,  and  I  don't  see 
how  it  can.  I  believe  my  resolution  has  not  been  seconded. 
I  withdraw  it  in  order  to  get  the  vote  on  Mr.  Kimball's 
resolution. 

The  vote  stood  as  follows: — 

Jr°opoSn       Aves— A.  T.  &  S.  F.,  A.  &  P.,  B.  &  M.,  ]).  &  R.  G.,  D. 

pJoHnd    &  r!  g.  w.,  u.  p.— 6. 

subdivision 

phaege077.See      Nays-C.  P.,  G.  H.  &  S.  A.,  S.  P.,  T  &  P.-4. 

N.  P.  and  O.  R.  &  N.  not  voting. 

Declared  lost. 
Discussion        Mr  Stubbs  again  presented  his  resolution. 

upon  sub-  "  *■ 

stitute  pro- 
viding for         Seconded  by  Mr.  Eccles. 

two  Pools—  J 

seepage  78 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  simply  wish  to  call  attention  to  the  fact 
that  a  resolution  has  been  unanimously  passed  declaring  it 
to  be  the  sense  of  the  Association  that  two  Pools  be  formed. 


81 

That  resolution  passed  unanimously.  Of  course  I  under- 
stand that  anybody  has  the  right  to  change  his  mind.  The 
proper  course  would  seem  to  be  to  call  up  the  resolution, 
and  reconsider  it.  This  resolution  is  simply  an  addendum 
to  that  resolution.  In  order  to  make  it  consistent,  or  rather 
to  add  to  that  resolution,  the  principle  set  by  the  Union  Pa- 
cific, namely,  that  there  shall  be  three  general  divisions  of 
the  traffic  as  to  route. 

Mr.  Goddard — 1  would  like  to  ask,  Mr.  Chairman,  as  to 
that  resolution.  Is  the  intent  of  it  this:  that  in  dividing  the 
Western  Pool  46  per  cent,  of  the  Missouri  River  rates  shall 
be  divided,  and  in  the  Eastern  Pool  40  percent,  of  the  Mis- 
souri River  rate  ?  These  percentages  being  the  smallest  ac- 
cruing, as  I  believe,  to  either  one  of  the  Lines  interested  in 
the  two  Pools. 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  do  not  know  that  that  is  a  matter  to  be 
agreed  upon. 

Mr.  Goddabd — In  other  words,  it  was  admitted  yester- 
day or  the  day  before  that  the  Union  Pacific  road,  in  so  far 
as  its  percentages  overlapped  that  of  the  Atchison,  was  a 
competitor  of  the  Atchison  road's  connections.  The  South- 
ern Pacific  road,  in  so  far  as  its  percentage  at  El  Paso  was 
greater  than  its  percentage  via  Albuquerque  or  Ogden,  was 
a  competitor  of  the  roads  composing  the  proposed  Eastern 
Pool.  Is  it  the  intention  to  entirely  wipe  out  that  part  of 
the  competition,  or  is  it  the  intention,  under  this  resolution, 
to  pool  the  through  rates  between  the  Missouri  River  and 
San  Francisco,  as  it  has  been  in  the  past? 

Mr.  Stubbs — So  far  as  the  question  relates  to  the  Pool 
east  of  these  junction  points,  the  question  as  to  whether  40 
per  cent,  of  the  through  rate,  or  54  per  cent,  of  the  through 
rate,  or  any  other  percentage  of  the  through  rate,  shall  be 
the  basis  for  contribution  to  the  pot  or  joint  purse,  is  a  sub- 
ject for  agreement,  or  ought  to  be  made  a  subject  for  subse- 
quent agreement,  precisely  as  we  have  under  our  former  Con- 
tract agreed  that  we  would  make  a  Pool,  determining  that 


82 

on  Passenger  rates  95,  90  or  some  other  percentage  of  the 
Kansas  City  rate  should  form  the  contribution  to  the  Pool. 
That  the  Eastern  Lines  can  determine  among  themselves,  and 
so  far  as  west  of  those  junction  points  is  concerned,  it 
would  be  the  subject  of  agreement  whether  it  should  be  46 
or  any  other  percentage.     That  was  my  intention. 

The  Commissioner — If  the  revenue  put  into  the  Pool  is 
on  Kansas  City  basis  I  do  not  see  that  it  makes  any  differ- 
ence. 

Mr.  Stubbs — That  is  the  only  point  upon  which  I  think 
the  resolution  is  subject  to  criticism;  and  I  was  sur- 
prised that  it  was  not  raised  the  other  day  when  the 
resolution  was  passed.  It  should  have  been  raised  then, 
and  discussed  before  you  passed  the  resolution.  There 
is  this  question  as  to  the  lapping  over  of  these  lines: 
I  am  willing  to  concede,  so  far  as  the  Southern  Pacific  is 
concerned,  that  it  is  to  a  certain  extent  a  competitor  with 
the  Union  Pacific,  when  you  come  to  a  question  of  revenue, 
and  yet  I  do  not  know  when  you  come  to  balance  all  the 
considerations  that  ought  to  be  taken  into  account,  that  is  a 
matter  of  so  little  importance  that  the  Association  need  not 
waste  time  upon  it.  I  know  this  much,  that  when  we  come 
to  consider  the  question  as  to  what  extent  it  is  a  competi- 
tor, we  are  in  deep  water,  for  this  would  be  the  conclusion 
and  result;  that  it  is  more  of  a  competitor,  a  competitor  to 
a  greater  extent  against  the  Ogden  Lines,  than  it  is  against 
the  Albuquerque  Lines.  If  you  should  agree  that  the 
Eastern  Pool  should  be  made  up  on  the  basis  of  40  per 
cent,  or  44  per  cent,  of  the  Kansas  City  rate,  and  that  the 
Western  Pool  should  be  on  the  basis  of  46  per  cent.,  the 
difference  is  only  10  per  cent.,  and  don't  amount  to  any- 
thing. That  is  not,  however,  the  smallest  percentage.  The 
G.  H.  &  S.  A.  is  the  smallest  percentage,  39.77.  If  the 
Pool  is  made  up  on  the  basis  of  Kansas  City  rate,  and  on 
division  of  46  and  54,  then  the  lines  would  all  share  equally 
in  it  all  the  way  round. 


83 

Mr.  Goddard  —  By  Deming,  El  Paso  or  any  other  junc- 
tion point? 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  should  hold  to  this  view,  if  there  were  a 
solid  agreement  between  the  Central  Pacific,  the  Atlantic 
&  Pacific  and  Southern  Pacific  Companies;  if  there  was  no 
competition  between  them,  that  is,  that  this  agreement  would 
neutralize  the  competition,  and  that  there  would  be  no  com- 
petition on  the  part  of  either  one  of  them  with  either  of  their 
connections,  or  with  any  of  the  connections  of  either  of  them. 
The  first  Pool  that  was  made  on  California  business  was  upon 
that  basis.  At  that  time  the  Atlantic  <fc  Pacific  was  not  com- 
pleted. The  Pool  was  made  between  the  Union  Pacific  and 
Atchison  first,  the  Atchison  connecting  with  the  Southern 
Pacific  at  Deming,  and  had  49  per  cent,  of  the  through  rate; 
the  Union  Pacific  had  54.  The  Southern  and  Central  Pa- 
cific roads  were  not  concerned  in  the  Pool  at  all;  and  I  do 
not  think  that  the  action  of  the  Southern  Pacific  and  Central 
Pacific  had  any  influence  on  the  maintenance  of  that  Pool. 
The  Texas  Pacific  was  afterwards  admitted  to  it,  and  still 
later  the  G.  H.  &  S.  A.  They  pooled  among  themselves. 
So  far  as  I  know,  the  rates  were  maintained.  I  do  not  see 
why  that  priuciple  may  not  obtain  now  and  in  the  future, 
provided  the  Atlantic  &  Pacific,  the  Central  Pacific  and 
Southern  Pacific  can  agree.  My  advices  are,  or  the  infor- 
mation I  have  from  our  General  Manager  up  to  this  mo- 
ment, is  that  we  will  not  go  into  any  agreement  which  might 
require  us  to  pay  to  a  connection  east  of  us,  no  matter 
whether  you  have  any  Pool  or  not. 

Mr.  Goddard — I  understand  that  to  be  the  answer  to  the 
point  I  raised,  and  that  you  decline  to  recognize  that  there 
is  any  competition  between  the  Southern  Pacific  and  Lines 
in  the  proposed  Eastern  Pool,  in  so  far  as  its  percentage 
overlaps  the  percentages  of  any  other  line. 

Mr.  Stubbs— I  mean  to  say  that  we  can  overcome  that. 
You  may  say  though  that  being  a  longer  Line,  this  element 
should  be  neutralized  by  some  arrangement;  but  the  fact  of 
its  being  under  one  management — under  one  control — the 


84 

interest  between  the  Central  and  Southern  Pacific  Lines  be- 
ing one  and  the  same,  is  sufficient  to  give  their  several  con- 
nections all  the  protection  and  a  great  deal  better  protec- 
tion than  any  Pool.  We  think  we  are  doing  all  that  should 
be  required  of  us,  so  far  as  the  Central  and  Southern  Pa- 
cific are  concerned,  if  we  take  care  of  the  Atlantic  & 
Pacific. 

upon  a.  &         Mr.  Ristine — I  must  confess  that  I  cannot  see  the  neces- 

p    Q       p 

pool."  sity  of  having  two  Pools  upon  this  Trans-Continental  busi- 

ness. I  think,  however,  we  should  arrange  to  cover  our  ar- 
rangement independent  of  the  Trans-Continental  Association. 

Mr.  Towne— How,  Mr.  Bistine? 

Mr.  Stubbs — Separate  the  Atlantic  &  Pacific  from  joint 
ownership  with  the  Atchison  and  St.  Louis  &  San  Francisco, 
and  you  would  soon  change  your  ideas. 

Mr.  Ristine — Here  is  an  Association  supposed  to  cover 
certain  business — business  west  of  the  97th  meridian  for 
the  Pacific  Coast.  Why  should  we  divide  it  into  parts  ? 
There  are  too  many  Pools  to  deal  with,  any  way.  The  At- 
lantic &  Pacific  is  perfectly  willing  to  join  with  the  Central 
&  Southern  Pacific  in  a  Pool,  but  in  this  case  it  should  be, 
as  now,  independent  of  the  Trans-Continental,  as  it  covers 
independent  business.  I  do  not  know  of  any  argument  that 
has  been  advanced  to  show  why  it  should  be  taken  into  the 
Trans-Continental  Pool  at  all. 

Mr.  Stubbs — Mr.  Ristine  don't  believe  there  is  any  good 
sense  in  a  multiplicity  of  Pools  so  far  as  the  Trans-Conti- 
nental is  concerned.  Now,  I  do  not  propose  to  multiply  the 
number  of  Pools  which  any  individual  member  of  this  Asso- 
ciation is  concerned  in.  You  make  two  Pools  under  the 
same  general  supervision,  but  the  Central  Pacific  would  only 
be  a  party  to  one  Pool,  the  Atlantic  &  Pacific  would  only  be 
a  party  to  one  Pool,  and  the  Southern  Pacific  would  only  be 
a  party  to  one  Pool;  so  you  gentlemen  would  only  be  parties 
to  one  Pool — there  would  be  no  multiplication.     As  I  have 


85 

told  you,  there  is  an  agreement  between  the  Atlantic  &  Pa- 
cific and  Southern  Pacific — a  Pool  very  likely  to  be  contin- 
ued in  principle — and  that  it  stands  to-day  like  this:  that  if 
we  pool  upon  the  basis  of  this  resolution  of  Mr.  Kimball's, 
for  one  Pool  to  cover  the  entire  territory  from  the  Missouri 
River  to  San  Francisco,  the  Central  Pacific  would  be  involved 
in  two  Pools  on  Trans-Continental  business;  the  Atlantic  & 
Pacific  would  be  involved  in  two  Pools  on  the  very  same 
business.  In  other  words,  take  the  Pool  that  ended  Decem- 
ber 31:  One  settlement  has  to  be  made  under  the  Tucker 
Award,  and  through  the  Trans-Continental  Association,  on 
business  that  passes  the  ninety-seventh  meridian;  and  an- 
other settlement  has  to  be  made  as  between  the  Central 
Pacific,  the  Atlantic  &  Pacific  and  the  Southern  Pacific  on 
the  very  same  business,  under  their  Atlantic  &  Pacific  Agree- 
ment. Mr.  Ristine  don't  want  a  multiplicity  of  Pools — don't 
believe  it  is  necessary  to  have  two  Pools  on  the  same  busi- 
ness, which  is  just  what  I  am  trying  to  vote  for. 

Mr.  Eistine —That  was  as  to  the  division  of  the  Trans- 
continental Association.  In  the  case  of  this  side  Agreement 
the  argument  does  not  apply,  because  it  covers  business 
which  is  not  the  subject  of  the  Trans-Continental  agree- 
ment. 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  do  not  know  of  any  use  of  wasting  time  in 
explaining  it ;  but  the  fact  that  a  Pool  between  the  C.  P., 
S.  P.  and  A.  &  P.  would  cover  more  business  than  that  of 
the  Trans-Continental  Association  is  the  very  reason  why 
they  should  be  separate  and  distinct — be  independent. 

Mr.  Goddard — Let  me  ask  one   question.     In  case  two  uponper- 
pools  were  formed,  is  the  "Sunset"  willing  to  pool  54'  per  be  pooled, 
cent,  of  the  Missouri  River  San  Francisco  rate  in  the  East- 
ern Pool,  provided  all  other  lines  do  the  same? 

Mr.  &TUBB8— While  it  is  likely  it  would  be  willing  to  do 
that,  I  am  not  competent  to  answer  the  question  definitely. 
I  think  the  "Sunset"  would  be  willing  to  put  in  all  the 
"Atchison"  is.     I  believe  that  is  the  true  principle. 


86 


Mr.  Goddakd — That  question  of  course  would  have  to 
be  disposed  of  before  we  could  agree  upon  what  we  are 
going  to  pool. 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  think  the  objection  to  any  line  pooling 
more  than  it  earned  is  always  coming  from  the  other  lines. 
I  have  not  discussed  the  matter  with  our  people  at  all.  I 
think  Mr.  Kistine  will  remember  that  I  once  suggested  that 
all  pool  on  the  highest  rate.  I  do  not  know  though,  with 
this  solid  compact  west  of  Ogden,  Albuquerque  and  El 
Paso,  that  that  would  be  necessary  at  all. 

Mr.  Kistine— The  Southern  Pacific  and  G.  H.  &  S.  A.  are 
practically  under  one  management,  and  one  set  of  percent- 
ages would  tend  to  simplify  your  business. 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  do  not  care  to  discuss  it  just  now. 

Mr.  Kistine — Whereas,  if  you  make  two  Pools,  two  sets 
of  percentages,  two  sets  of  accounts,  etc.,  you  would  further 
complicate  the  situation. 

Mr.  Stubbs — You  ought  to  know  about  as  well  as  anybody 
in  this  institution  that  two  sets  of  accounts  are  kept,  one  for 
the  G.  H.  &  S.  A.  and  one  for  the  Southern  Pacific.  They 
divide  their  rates  in  the  same  manner  as  the  Central  and 
Union  Pacific  roads  do. 


Vote  upon 
Mr.  Stubbs' 
substitute 
providing 
for  two 
Pools- 
see  page  78. 


Mr.  Goddard  called  for  the  question. 

Mr.  Stubbs — If  Mr.  Goddard  wants  to  propose  a  Pool  on 
the  highest  percentage,  Mr.  Towne  says  the  "Sunset  "will 
do  it  and  stay  by  you.  If  you  want  to  put  in  $1.00,  we 
will  put  in  $1.00. 

Mr.  Goddard — I  simply  desired  the  information.  I  have 
not  made  any  proposition  for  you  to  answer  yet. 

The  vote  stood: 

Ayes— C.  P.,  G.  H.  &  S.  A.,  S.  P.,  T.  &  P.— 4. 

Nays— A.  T.  &S.  F.,  A.  &  P.,  B.  &  M.,  D.  &  K.  G.,  D.  & 
K.  G.  W.,  U.  P.— 6. 


N.  P. 


&  O.  K.  &  N.  not  voting. 


87 
Declared  lost. 
By  Mr.  Ristine,  seconded  by  Mr.  Miller  : 

Resolved,  That  the  question  of  percentages  for  each  Through  Line  doing  Resolution 

business  between  California  and  points  east  of  the  97th  meridian  of  longitude  percentages 

be  now  agreed  upon,   said  percentages  to  apply  from  January  1,  1885,  and  J?  aPP'y  to 

continue  until  March  31,  1885,  and  thereafter  until  thirty  days  notice  shall  lines. 
be  given  by  one  or  more  parties. 

Mr.  Stubbs  offered  an  amendment  as  follows — 

Strike  out  the  words  "each  through  line,"  and  insert,  "the  lines  east  of   uJ£2J5jmeilt 
Ogden,  Albuquerque,  Deming  and  El  Paso  respectively." 

The  vote  upon  the  amendment  stood : 

Vote  upon 
Ayes— C.  P.,  G.  H.  &  S.   A.,   S.  P.,  T.  &  P.— 4.  amendment 

Nays-A.  T.  &  S.  F.,  A.  P.,  B.  &  M.,  D.  &  R.  G.,  D.  & 
R.  G.  W.,  U.  P.— 6. 

N.  P.  and  O.  R.  &  N.  not  voting. 

Lost. 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  would  raise  a  point  of  order,  that  the  res-  Mr-  stubbs 

i  i  m  i  raises  point 

olution  as  it   stands  is  out  of    order.      A  resolution  was  of  order 

iiiii-  •  ii-i  against  dis- 

unammously  adopted  by  this  meeting,  which  declared  that  cushion  of 
we  should  form  two  Pools.     The  resolution  introduced  by 
Mr.  Ristine  is  entirely  inconsistent  with  that  accepted  res- 
olution. 

The  Commissioner— The  point  of  order  is  sustained. 

Mr.  Stubbs— We  cannot  proceed  unless  we  do  so  on  the 
basis  of  that  resolution. 

Mr.  Goddard—  I  do  not  consider  that  a  fair  position. 
The  resolution  to  which  you  refer  merely  proposed  a  plan 
of  procedure.  We  have  voted  to-day  not  to  pool  .on  that 
proposed  plan. 

Mr.  Stubbs— See  if  the  Association  has  so  declared  itself. 

Mr.  Goddard— If  we  are  to  be  picked  up  upon  technical 


resolution. 


See  page  12. 


88 

grounds,  and  in  order  to  treat  the  matter  parliamentarily, 
I  move — 


Motion  to 
reconsider 
resolution 

on  Order  of        That  the  Kesolution  upon  the  Order  of  Procedure  be  reconsidered. 

Procedure —  x 

Seconded  by  Mr.  Hooper. 

Mr.  Hannafoed — Before  voting  upon  that  proposition, 
I  would  like  to  ask  if  the  expunging  of  that  resolution  from 
the  record  would  affect  that  portion  of  it  already  disposed  of, 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  make  the  point,  that  if  that  resolution  is 
reconsidered  it  carries  with  it  what  we  have  already  agreed 
to  in  its  connection.  The  Central  Pacific  voted  for  the 
O.  E.  &  N.  and  N.  P.  subsidy  upon  the  basis  of  that  method 
of  procedure. 

Mr.  Goddaed— I  think  that  is  a  case  of  "  brow-beating," 
hardly  warrantable  in  this  meeting. 

Disposition       Upon  the  motion  to  reconsider  the  vote  stood: 

of  motion  to  1 

Ayes-A.  T.  &  S.  F.,  A.  &  p.,  B.  &  M.,  D.  &  E.  G.,  D. 
&B.  G.  W.-5. 

Navs— C.  P.,  G.  H.  &  S.  A.,  N.  P.,  S.  P.,  T.  &  P.,  U. 
P.—  6. 

O.  E.  &  N.  not  present. 

Declared  lost. 

Question  Mr.  Goddaed — Mr.  Chairman,  do  you  decide  Mr.  Eistine's 

ot  order       resolution  as  out  of  order? 

The  Commissioner— The  point  of  order  was  declared  sus- 
tained. 

Mr.  Goddaed — Does  that  mean  that  we  cannot  do  any 
further  business  ? 

tbTsifua0/         Mr.  Stubbs— It  means  this :  This  resolution  was  offered 
tion'  and  voted  down.  Mr.  Kimball  offered  a  resolution  embody- 

ing the   same   proposition.      It  was  voted   down.     I  then 
offered  a  substitute  for  Mr,  Kimball's  resolution  of  yester- 


89 

day,  which  embodied  a  portion  of  his  proposition,  but  mak- 
ing it  consistent  with  the  motion  already  adopted,  still  pre- 
serving the  idea  of  the  two  Pools,  that  was  voted  down.  That 
clearly  brings  the  issue  to  the  point  as  to  whether  we  are 
going  to  have  one  Pool  or  two  Pools.  We  are  not  prepared 
to  vote  for  a  proposition  for  one  Pool.  Mr.  Ristine's  reso- 
lution was  meant  by  a  circuitous  route  to  accomplish  the 
same  end  as  Mr.  Kimball's;  and  if  that  sort  of  a  resolution 
is  to  be  introduced  and  to  be  voted  upon,  then  we  are  justi- 
fied in  applying  parliamentary  tactics  to  its  disposition. 
There  is  no  use  of  fightiug  that  issue.  We  want  two  Pools. 
You  do  not  want  two  Pools.  Now  then,  we  can  settle  that 
without  introducing  resolutions,  and  perhaps  some  of  us  can 
drop  to  a  "still  hunt "  by  attention.  That  is  the  only  reason 
why  I  resorted  to  the  point  of  order. 

Mr.  Goddard— There  seems  to  be  a  difference  of  opinion. 
We  don't  seem  to  get  together.  Is  there  any  business  which 
zvecan  work  upon  ?    I  wrant  to  get  home. 

Mr.  Stubbs — We  should  be  very  sorry  to  see  you  depart 
in  a  bad  humor.  * 

Mr.  Goddabd— Never  was  known  to  be  in  anything  else 
than  a  good  humor.  Cannot  afford  to  lose  my  temper  over 
a  little  thing  like  a  Pool. 

Mr.  STUBBS — We  think  we  have  given  you  good  reasons 
for  the  establishing  of  two  Pools,  reasons  which  have  not 
been  answered  by  any  reasons  to  the  contrary.  You  have 
refused  to  debate  the  subject. 

Mr.  Goddard— I  raised  the  only  point  of  objection  that 
there  is  to  it,  and  it  is  a  serious  point — whether  we  are  go- 
ing to  pool  or  not  between  the  Missouri  River  and  San  Fran- 
cisco on  10,  20,  or  any  other  percentage.  I  am  willing  to 
discuss  the  situation,  provided  we  pool  the  whole  earnings, 
and  if  the  whole  business  is  taken  care  of  and  taken  care  of 
properly. 

Mi.  Stubbs— Yesterday,  when   the    resolution  was  pro- 


90 

posed,  }tou  did  not  raise  the  point,  did  not  discuss  it,  did 
not  debate  it,  nor  to-day  did  you  do  it,  nor  did  any  one  else. 
You  simply  asked  me  a  question  as  to  the  intent  of  it.  I 
gave  you  the  intentions  of  it  at  length,  and  I  also  gave  it 
yesterday. 

Mr.  Goddard — I  did  not  so  understand  it. 

Mr.  Stubbs— I  did  fully.  After  that  explanation  you  did 
not  go  a  step  farther.  You  did  not  give  any  reason — you 
did  not  offer  any  reason  why  you  voted  against  it.  You 
asked  another  question — would  the  G.  H.  &  S.  A.  be  willing 
to  pool  on  the  basis  of  54  per  cent.?  I  told  you  that  I  was 
not  able  to  answer  that,  but  thought  perhaps  the  "  Sunset" 
would  be  willing  to  put  into  the  Pool  as  much  as  any  one 
else.  The  General  Manager  signified  his  willingness,  and  I 
said  we  would  do  it,  which  met  your  objection. 

Mr.  Goddard — It  did  not  meet  the  question. 

Mr.  Stubbs — It  took  care  of  the  question  as  to  what  we 
were  willing  to  pool  upon.  I  said  we  would  pool  as  much 
as  the  "  Atchison  "  Avould.  You  said  you  did  not  intend  to 
commit  yourself. 

Mr.  Goddard— The  whole  pith  and  substance  of  the  mat- 
ter you  well  know;  there  is  no  use  of  attempting  to  avoid  it. 
It  is  whether  the  Southern  Pacific  Line  is  willing  to  join  in 
a  pool,  recognizing  that  it  does  compete  with  the  Atlantic  & 
Pacific  and  the  Central  Pacific  Lines  to  the  extent  of  the 
differences  in  their  percentages,  and  if  the  result  should 
happen  to  be  that  the  Southern  Pacific  Line,  in  so  far  as 
that  percentage  is  concerned,  should  be  obliged  to  pay  to 
the  Union  Pacific,  or  pay  to  the  Atchison,  whether  they  are 
ready  to  join  on  that  basis,  recognizing  their  own  competi- 
tion. 

Mr.  Stubbs — You  are  getting  down  to  it .  The  answer  to 
that  is  this:  The  G.  H.  &  S.  A.  will  put  in  its  full  propor- 
tion of  54  per  cent,  if  the  rest  do  it.  That  takes  care  of  that 
business. 


91 

Mr.  Goddard — No,  sir;  it  does  not. 

Mr.  Stubbs — It  pools  the  full  100  per  cent,  of  the  Kan- 
sas City  rate. 

Mr.  Goddard — If  you  put  in  54  per  cent,  and  the  Atchi- 
son puts  in  what  it  earns,  it  meets  the  question  ex- 
actly. 

Mr.  Stubbs— If  the  G.  H.  &  S.  A.  puts  in  54  per  cent.? 

Mr.  Goddard — Yes,  sir.  If  they  put  in  54  per  cent.,  and 
you  ask  the  Atchison  to  put  in  54  per  cent.,  it  does  not  meet 
the  objection. 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  want  to  know  how  you  can,  with  any  cool- 
ness, sit  there  and  argue  that  the  Atchison  Company,  hav- 
ing but  44  per  cent,  of  the  Line,  does  not  compete  with  the 
Union  Pacific  to  the  extent  of  10  per  cent.,  provided  the 
Atlantic  <fc  Pacific  competes,  provided  the  Southern  Pacific 
competes,  and  if  the  G.  H.  &  S.  A.,  which  would  have  40 
per  cent.,  should  put  in  54  per  cent.,  in  order  to  lengthen 
its  line  to  that  of  the  Union  Pacific,  why  the  Atchison 
should  not  put  in  54  per  cent,  in  order  to  lengthen  its  line 
to  an  equality  with  that  of  the  Union  Pacific. 

Mr.  Goddard — That  puts  the  question  in  another  form, 
which  is  not  my  original  proposition.  In  all  our  agree- 
ments, since  we  have  have  had  a  Pool,  it  has  been  a  recog- 
nized principle  that  the  through  rates  were  the  only  basis 
upon  which  a  correct  Pool  could  be  made.  It  seems  to  me 
that  that  is  the  only  basis.  The  contributions  by  Lines 
must  be,  of  course,  in  proportion  to  the  division  of  through 
rates  by  these  Lines. 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  do  not  think  you  are  correct,  because,  as 
I  illustrated  in  my  answer  to  your  question,  we  do  not  pool 
the  total  rates  in  some  cases.  We  don't  do  it  on  Passenger 
business.     We  don't  do  it  on  some  Freight  rates. 

Mr.  Goddard — The  Passenger  Agents  say  that  that  is  the 
average  amount  received.  The  intention  was  to  pool  just 
the  Missouri  River  rate. 


92 

Mr.  Stubbs — We  say  that  the  one  management  is  a  fair 
offset.  We  can  neutralize  this  competition.  There  is  prac- 
tically no  competition  between  the  Union  Pacific  and  the 
Southern  Pacific. 

Mr.  Goddard— The  G.  H.  &  S.  A.  is  the  same  thing. 
Put  in  the  whole  line  to  New  Orleans. 

Mr.  Ristine — If  the  Atchison  road  puts  in  54  per  cent., 
how  much  would  you  have  the  Atlantic  &  Pacific  put  in? 

Mr.  Stubbs — If  we  say  46  per  cent,  is  the  rate,  that  is 
the  amount  you  would  put  in.  I  don't  know  how  you  would 
come  out  under  that  proposition.  You  would  not  put  in 
more  than  you  agreed. 

Informal  discussion. 

Mr.  Goddard — I  understand,  Mr.  Towne,  your  idea  is 
this:  If  I  understand  it  correctly,  the  objection  raised  by 
Mr.  Stubbs  to  that  arbitration  was,  that  it  was  unfair  to  the 
Central  and  Southern  Pacific,  in  that  it  did  not  give  them  a 
fair  division  of  the  through  rate  as  compared  with  what  was 
given  to  their  Eastern  connections.  Now,  as  I  have  said  to 
Mr.  Stubbs  two  or  three  times,  there  is  something  in  that.  I  do 
not  think  that  any  one  here  is  disposed,  or  has  any  disposition 
whatever,  to  attempt  to  claim  or  hold  on  to  anything  that 
does  not  belong  to  them.  As  I  understand  your  position,  it 
is  simply  this :  That  whenever  the  awards  are  made,  pro- 
vided we  can  sit  down  here  to-day  or  to-morrow  aud  agree 
upon  what  part  of  the  business  shall  go  by  each  and  all  of 
the  through  routes,  that  your.  Companies,  the  Central  and 
Southern  Pacific  Companies,  would  be  willing  to  accept 
their  regular  division  of  the  rates,  whatever  that  would  give 
them  by  the  different  routes,  as  we  divide  our  rates  to-day. 
In  other  words,  supposing  one-third  of  the  business  shall 
go  to  the  Union  and  Central  Pacific  Line.  The  Central  Pa- 
cific wants  46  per  cent.  You  are  entitled  to  it,  unquestion- 
ably. Of  any  percentage  allotted  to  the  D.  &  R.  G.  and 
B.    &  M.    Line,  the   Central  Pacific  should  have  46    per 


93 

cent,  of  that.  Of  whatever  amount  is  awarded  to  the  At- 
lantic «fc  Pacific  Line,  you  should  have  your  division,  18  per 
cent.,  or  whatever  it  is.  Of  whatever  is  awarded  to  the 
Deming  Line,  you  should  have  51  per  cent.  Whatever  is 
awarded  to  the  "  Sunset"  Line,  you  should  have  your  proper 
divisional  percentage  of  that.  The  objection  which  I  see 
to  this  proposed  plan  is  the  cne  I  have  raised,  and  it  seems 
to  me  to  be  a  very  important  question,  that  is  in  the  separa- 
tion of  the  Pools  one  of  your  lines  overlaps  the  lines  in  the 
Eastern  Pool.  This  has  to  be  recognized  to  a  certain  extent, 
to  the  extent  of  the  difference  in  percentages  between  these 
lines.  For  instance,  if  the  "  Sunset  Line,"  we  will  say,  is 
awarded  a  given  percentage,  and  the  Southern  Pacific  takes 
60  per  cent,  of  that  percentage,  incase  they  should  run  over, 
carry  a  large  amount  over  their  percentage,  and  the  Union 
Pacific  should  run  short,  and  the  "Atchison"  run  short, 
whereas  the  Southern  Pacific  would  be  short  of  18  per  cent. 
on  account  of  the  Atlantic  &  Pacific's  Through  Line  short- 
age, it  would  be  over  60  per  cent,  of  the  amount  carried 
over  by  the  "Sunset"  and  the  Southern  Pacific.  That 
would  cause  the  question  that  would  arise  as  to  the  compe- 
tition of  Southern  Pacific  south  of  Mojave,  and  north  of  Mo- 
jave,  and  it  might  cause  the  Southern  Pacific  to  pay  the 
"Atchisou"  or  to  pay  to  the  Union  Pacific  a  small  amount  of 
money.  It  seems  to  me  that  this  competition  must  be  re- 
cognized in  order  to  have  a  Pool. 

Mr.  Stubbs — You  say  you  understand  that  that  is  our  po- 
sition, yet  I  have  repeatedly  said  that  we  do  not  want  to 
pool  twice  on  the  same  business  as  between  the  C.  P.,  A.  & 
P.  and  S.  P.  Companies,  and  that  is  the  only  point  against 
it.  Further,  you  say  my  objection  in  Chicago  to  Mr.  Tuck- 
er's award  was  only 

Mr.  Goddard— Mainly. 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  had  two  or  three  statements  with  me  there, 
one  showing  that  the  award,  according  to  the  business  that 
had  been  up  to  that  date  tabulated  in  the  Commissioner's 


94 

office,  was  unjust  to  our  lines.     You  forced  me  to  illustrate 

it  so  as  to  convince  you  gentlemen  that  you  were  getting 

more  than  you  were  entitled  to.     On  my  statement  that  we 

did  not  get  our  pro  rata  proportion  of  what  our  connections 

got,  I  simply  put  that  before  you  because  it  was  a  showing 

which  none  of  you  could  gaiusay.     Now,  we  will  take  your 

SousDintro-    very  proposition.    It  might  be  that  the  Union  Pacific  would 

show  unfair  carry  largely  in  excess  of  its  tonnage;   the  Central  Pacific 

Sing10*     likewise  would  carry  in  excess  of  its  tonnage.    Now,  it  might 

and  debate     transpire,  it  is  possible,  as  shown   by  the   Commissioner's 

report  here,  that  the  Central  Pacific  might  have  to  pay  to 

the  B.  &  M.     I  have  a  showing  here  to  illustrate  it. 

You  take  the  Commissioner's  statement  for  October.  Now, 
this  is  reducing  all  lines  east  of  our  junction  points  to  54 
per  cent,  and  putting  sufficient  into  the  Eastern  Line  of  the 
Southern  Pacific's  earnings  to  bring  it  up  to  54  per  cent.  On 
the  basis  of  the  earnings  it  shows  that  16.8  per  cent,  of  the 
Southern  Pacific's  line,  or  its  gross  earnings  might  be,  ac- 
cording to  your  proposition  or  to  the  proposition  of  Mr. 
Stebbins — I  believe  he  originated  it — regarded  as  competi- 
tive. He  regarded  the  competition,  though  not  of  your 
line,  nor  of  the  Texas  &  Pacific,  nor  of  the  B.  &  M., 
but  of  the  U.  P.,  and  of  the  B.  &  M.  and  D.  &  R.  G.  line 
jointly.  Of  course  it  would  be  the  D.  &  R.  G.,  and  not 
B.  &  M.  Now  then,  we  take  the  Award.  The  "over"  of 
the  Southern  Pacific  amounts  to  $47,661.95.  16.8  per  cent, 
of  that  sum  we  can  fairly  attribute,  according  to  this  argu- 
ment of  Mr.  Stebbins  and  yourself,  as  nothing  more  than 
legitimate  competition  with  the  lines  east  of  them.  That 
amounts  to  $8,007.20.  Now,  the  Atlantic  &  Pacific  was 
short  $10,64.7.43;  Central  Pacific,  $9,4S2.62.  We  cannot 
deny  but  the  Southern  Pacific  is  a  slight  competitor  of  the 
Atlantic  &  Pacific  and  of  the  Central  Pacific,  and  that  about 
$20,000  should  be  paid  by  the  Southern  Pacific  to  them, 
which  leaves  a  balance  of  $5,000.00  to  be  paid  to  lines  east 
of  Albuquerque  and  Ogden  by  the  Southern  Pacific.  The 
D.  &  R.  G.  was  short  $15,409.91;  the  Union  Pacific  was 
over  $7,579.60.     Apply  the  Union  Pacific  over  to  the  D. 


95 

&  R.  G.  short,  because  there  can  be  no  question  about  the 
competition  between  these  lines,  which  leaves  balance  of  D. 
<fe  R.  G.  short  $7,830.31.  The  G.  H.  &  S.  A.  was  over 
811,046.03,  the  Texas  &  Pacific,  $14,004.35;  total,  $25,050.38. 
The  Atchison  was  short  $21,648.06.  Apply  the  Texas  & 
Pacific  and  G.  H.  &  S.  A.  over  to  the  Atchison  short,  they 
being  the  nearest  lines,  and  certainly  are  the  competitors 
of  the  "Atchison,"  if  of  anybody,  which  leaves  net  over 
on  the  part  of  the  G.  H.  &  S.  A.  and  Texas  Pacific  of 
$3,402.32.  We  now  dispose  of  the  Union  Pacific  and  B.  &  M. 
and  balance  of  D.  &  R.  G.  shortage.  The  B.  &  M.  short- 
age is  $23,103.yl.  The  balance  of  over  by  Texas  &  Pacific 
and  G.  H.  &  S.  A.  being  $3,402.32— we  certainly  ought  to 
admit  because  there  is  competition — would  leave  in  "short" 
B.  &  M.  $19,701.59.  We  add  balance  of  short  D.  &  R.  G. 
$7,830.31.  We  take  the  $8,007.21  of  the  Southern  Pacific, 
which,  according  to  your  argument,  is  only  such  as  is  sub- 
ject to  competition  in  the  East,  and  apply  that  to  the  D.  & 
R.  G.,  and  it  leaves  $176.90  over.  Apply  that  then  to  the 
B.  &  M.  balance  of  shortage,  and  it  reduces  it  to  $19,524.69, 
which  exactly  balances  with  the  over  of  the  Southern  Pacific 
after  paying  the  Central  Pacific  and  the  Atlantic  and  Pacific. 
Now,  I  say,  by  your  own  method  of  calculation,  that  the 
Tucker  Award  makes  the  Southern  Pacific  pay  $19,524.69 
to  lines  with  which  it  has  no  competition  whatever,  and  so 
far  as  I  have  been  able  to  carry  the  matter  in  my  mind,  I 
do  not  believe  that  you  can  make  any  award  by  Routes — 
through  Lines — that  will  not  in  some  cases  work  one  and 
the  same  result. 

Mr.  Goddard — The  reverse  would  also  be  true,  Mr. 
Stubbs. 

Mr.  Stubbs— Possibly. 

Mr.  Goddard  It  would  be  a  very  likely  thing  if  any  of 
the  other  lines  should  happen  to  be  over,  that  the  Atchison 
might  l)e  obliged  to  pay  to  the  Southern  Pacific.  The 
Union  Pacific  might  pay  to  the  Atlantic  &  Pacific. 

M  r.  S  itbbs— I  do  not  think  it  is  probable.     The  Southern 


96 

Pacific,  the  Central  Pacific  and  the  Union  Pacific  are  old 
lines,  and  I  think  if  anybody  is  going  to  be  plucked  by  the 
award  it  would  be  either  of  these  lines.  There  is  more 
uncertainty  about  the  amount  you  are  entitled  to,  about  the 
amount  the  B.  &  M.  and  D.  &  K.  G.  are  entitled  to,  than 
others,  because  you  are  untried  comparatively.  We  have 
experimented  three  months  to  the  tune  of  over  $100,000. 
That  experiment  is  sufficient  to  us,  ought  to  be  sufficient  to 
you  gentlemen,  if  you  desire  what  is  fair.  I  said  to  you 
that  you  had  touched  upon  the  only  point  that  made  my  res- 
olution subject  to  criticism,  and  that  was  the  question  of 
"hipping"  lines.  I  thought  of  that,  and  expected  that  the 
point  would  be  raised,  wondered  it  was  not  raised  when  the 
resolution  was  presented;  but  I  think  that  can  be  taken  care 
of  easily  enough.  The  only  difference  it  would  make 
would  be,  if  the  lines  east  of'  these  junction  points 
agree  to  pool  upon  the  least  percentage,  and  the  lines  west 
the  same  thing,  that  would  leave  14  per  cent,  of  the  earn- 
ings not  in  the  Pool,  and  that  14  per  cent,  would  not  cover 
the  cost  of  doing  the  business,  and  I  do  not  believe  it 
would  be  any  incentive  to  cut  in  the  matter.  It  works  a 
real  hardship  to  us,  and  is  likely  to  affect  us  in  our  treas- 
ury, to  complicate  our  accounts,  and  put  us  to  a  great  deal 
of  trouble.  It  does  not  affect  your  revenue  one  cent.  The 
only  reason  you  object  to  it  is  that  by  reason  of  the  full 
100  per  cent,  not  being  put  in  between  Missouri  River  and 
San  Francisco,  that  that  margin,  say  14  per  cent.,  and  it 
cannot  be  more,  will  be  used  to  cut  on.  Now,  any  man 
that  makes  that  basis  of  objection.  I  should  assume,  goes 
upon  the  theory  of  judging  every  one  else  by  himself.  I 
want  you  to  bear  in  mind  that  it  does  not  affect  your  revenue 
one  particle,  but  that  it  does  affect  our  revenue. 

Mr.  Goddakd — It  does  affect  our  revenues  very  se- 
riously. It  affects  them  to  the  extent  of  that  amount  of 
money. 

Mr.  Stubbs — You  keep  it  if  you  earn  it. 

Mr.    Goddard — We  don't  earn  it. 


97 

Mr.  Stubbs-  -You  are  not  entitled  to  anything  you  don't 
earn. 

Mr.  Goddard — All  right.    Let's  go  in  on  a  maintenance  of  Proposition 

of  A     T   & 

rates.     That  appears  to  be  the  only  solution  of  this  problem.   s- F-  f°r 

11  ^  *■  agreement 

on  mainte* 

Mr.  Stubbs — All  right:  lam  with  you.  nance  of 

°  J  rates  only, 

Mr.  EistesE — How  far  East  would  you  go — New  England  ?  thereon. 

Mr.  Stubbs — Yes,  sir.  I  will  go  just  as  far  as  you  dare. 
Can  you  agree  to  maintain  rates  from  there  ?  Can  you  con- 
trol rates  from  there  ?  I  am  already  in  an  agreement  to 
maintain  rates  from  New  York;  to  maintain  rates  on  a  level 
with  the  rates  all  rail,  and  we  have  done  so.  I  have  always 
been  on  that  platform.  The  *mly  reason  why  rates  have  not 
been  maintained  is,  I  think,  or  I  choose  to  think,  it  impos- 
sible of  maintaining  rates  east  of  the  Missouri  River. 

Mr.  Eistine — You  said  the  other  day  that  you  did  not 
care  whether  you  adopted  the  7f  cent  rate  on  Oil.  You 
wanted  the  same  rate  as  ruling  from  Pittsburgh.  Would 
that  be  maintaining  rates  with  the  Trunk  Lines  ? 

Mr.  Stubbs—  I  am  not  under  any  agreement  that  I  cannot 
abrogate  by  a  notice. 

Mr.  Goddard — What  Mr.  Stubbs  means  as  to  agree- 
ment is  when  they  all  agree  with  him . 

Mr.  Stubbs— That's  right.  When  their  rales  agree  with 
mine,  they  ivill  be  maintained.     You  can  take  the  reverse. 

Mr.  Goddard — Reverse  would  be  good. 

Mr.  Stubbs— We  have  not  agreed  since  the  first  day  of 
January,  1883. 

Mr.  Ristixe—  I  thought  I  heard  yon  rem  irk  that  during 
the  month  of  December  the  "  Sunset"  took  75  per  cent,  of 
the  business.  Now,  if  the  other  lines  did  not  agree  to 
maintain  rates  in  the  month  of  December,  and  you  could 
get  75  per  cent,  upon  a  maintenance  of  rates,  you  are  a  bet- 
ter man  than  I  think  you  are. 


98 


Commis- 
sioner's re- 
marks. 


Pacific 
Mail  rates 
for  1884  ex- 
tended  to 
January  3  >. 


Mr.  Stubbs — You  are  entitled  to  your  opinion,  and  it  is 
good  for  what  it  is  worth,  and  that's  all.  In  the  first  place, 
you  misonstrued  what  you  heard.  You  did  not  hear  me 
say  anything  of  the  kind. 

Mr.  Ristine — I  certainly  did  hear  it  from  either  yourself 
or  Mr.  Towne. 

Mr.  STUBBS^It  is  a  very  little  failing  you  have  of  miscon- 
struing; that  is  all. 

Informal  discussion. 

Mr.  Towne — What  are  we  doing?  Are  we  arriving  at 
anything  or  not? 

Mr.  Ristine — Mr.  Towne,  I  think  we  had  better  adjourn 
and  see  if  we  cannot  figure  upon  some  proposition  that  will 
be  acceptable. 

On  motion,  it  was  agreed  to  adjourn  until  10  a.  m.  to- 
morrow. 


Saturday,  January  11th — Morning  Session. 

Meeting  convened  at  11  a.  m. 

All  members  represented. 

The  Commissioner — The  second  section  of  Mr.  Stubbs' 
resolution  I  suppose  is  still  the  order  of  business  for  this 
morning.  I  trust  somebody  will  have  a  resolution  that  will 
strike  a  happy  medium  and  go  through.  Mr.  Goddard,  we 
are  ready  for  your  resolution. 

Mr.  Goddard — I  am  out  of  resolutions  this  morning,  Mr. 
Chairman. 

Mr.  Ristine— I  move 

That  the  rates  accorded  to  contractors  by  Pacific  Mail  for  last  year  be  ex- 
tended to  cover  steamer  sailing  January  30th,  and  that  the  Acting  Commis- 
sioner issue  the  necessary  advices. 


Seconded  by  Mr.  Stubbs. 
Adopted. 


99 


Mr.  Eustis— There  are  some  of  us  here  who  have  had  a 
vague  hope  of  getting  away  to-day.  We  don't  like  to  lose 
that  hope  so  early  in  the  morning. 

Mr.  Kimball— Very  vague. 

The  Commissioner — I  would  like  to  ask  if  any  of  you  have 
found  anything  to  offer  ?   This  sitting  round  here  don't  pay. 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  will  invite  you  all  down  to  take  a  drink. 

Mr.  Goddard — In  view  of  my  proposed  early  departure,  I 
have  made  my  last  will  and  testament.  I  beg  to  offer  it  for 
the  consideration  of  the  meeting: 

Resolved,  That  a  Pool  be  formed  by  the  roads  west  of  the  Missouri  River, 
doing  California  business  with  points  east  of  the  97th  meridian.  Said  Pool 
to  consist  of  the  following  roads : 

Union  Pacific,  Burlington  &  Mo.  River,  Texas  &  Pacific,  Denver  &  Rio 
Grande,  Atchison,  Topeka  &  Santa  Fe,  Galveston,  Harrisburg  &  San  Anto- 
nio, and  so  much  of  the  A.  &  P.,  and  S.  P.  as  is  necessary  to  cause  the  con- 
tributions to  said  Pool  to  equal  54  per  cent,  of  the  earnings  between  Missouri 
River  and  San  Francisco. 

Each  of  the  Lines  (except  the  A.  &  P.  and  S.  P.)  shall  contribute  to  the 
Pool  their  entire  earnings  on  the  traffic  passing  the  97th  meridian,  except  as 
may  be  modified  by  subsequent  agreement  on  the  east  and  California  on  the 
west.  The  A.  &  P.  and  So.  Pacific  shall  contribute  to  said  Pool  so  much  of 
their  earnings  as  is  necessary  to  make  the  contributions  to  said  Pool  equal  to 
54  per  cent,  of  the  Missouri  River  San  Fraucisco  earnings. 

In  case  of  failure  to  agree  upon  percentages  to  be  awarded  each  road,  the 
question  to  be  referred  to  arbitration  on  or  before  February  10th,  1885;  the 
Arbtirator  to  be  chosen  on  or  before  January  20th,  1885.  The  decision  of  the 
Arbitrator  to  be  final  and  binding  upon  the  parties  hereto  for  three  months, 
from  January  1st,  18i5,  and  thereafter  subject  to  33  days'  notice  by  either 
l>;irty  hereto. 


Proposition 
for  Pool  be- 
tween lines 
east  of  Cen- 
tal Pacific 
system,  etc. 
Resolution. 


Seconded  by  Mr.  Miller. 
Informal  discussion. 


The  Commissioner — Mr.  Kimball,  have  you  anything  to 
say  upon  Mr.  Goddard's  resolution  ? 


Mr.  Kimball — I  would  offer  the  following  amendment: 


Proposition 
Pool  be- 
tween i  \- 
Besolved,  That  a  second  pool  be  formed,  consisting  of  the  Lines  west  of  the    treme  West- 
territory  described,  which  shall  include  4G  per  cent,  of  the  through  earnings    amendment. 


100 

between  Pacific  Coast  common  points  and  points  east  of  the  97th  meridian. 
And  in  case  of  failure  to  agree  upon  the  percentages  to  be  awarded  each  Line, 
the  question  to  be  referred  to  arbitration  on  or  before  February  10th,  1885. 
The  Arbitrator  to  be  chosen  on  or  before  January  20th,  1885. 

Resolved,  That  the  accounts  of  the  two  Pools  shall  be  kept  by  one  and  the 
same  Commissioner,  and  that  the  contributions  to  the  subsidy  or  sub- 
sidies be  assessed  upon  the  several  members  of  the  two  Pools  in  proportion 
to  their  earnings. 

Resolved,  That  the  affairs  of  the  two  Pools  shall  be  administered  by  the 
officers  or  managers  of  the  Trans-Continental  Association,  and  that  the  dis- 
tribution of  the  revenue  accruing  and  the  apportionment  and  assessment  of 
the  expenses,  as  well  as  the  collection  and  payment  of  subsidies,  shall  be  made 
by  the  Commissioner  of  this  Association. 

Resolved,  That  all  of  the  Bites,  Kules  and  Eegulations  of  the  Trans-Conti- 
nental Association  shall  app!y  to  and  be  binding  upon  the  Eastern  and  the 
Western  pools,  which  are  to  be  considered  as  divisional  and  subordinate  Pools 
of  this  Association. 

Seconded  by  Mr.  Hoopek. 

Mr.  Kimball — I  think,  Mr.  Commissioner,  as  this  is  a 
very  important  matter,  it  would  in  my  judgment  be  a  good 
idea  to  allow  the  members  plenty  of  time  to  consider  all  the 
provisions  of  the  resolution,  the  original  and  the  amend- 
ment.    I  would  therefore  move 

That  we  now  adjourn  to  1:30  this  afternoon,  and  that  all  the  members  be 
requested  to  meet  here  promptly  at  that  hour, 

As  a  portion  of  the  Association  have  accepted  an  invitation 
to  go  to  Monterey  this  afternoon,  and  will  be  compelled  to 
leave  here  at  3  p.m. 

Seconded  by  Mr.  Towne. 

Adopted. 


Saturday,  January  11th — Afternoon  Session. 

The  Commissioner — The  question  is  upon  Mr.  Kimball's 
amendment  to  Mr.  Goddard's  resolution. 

ment  to  the       Mr.    Ristine — I   desire   to   offer   an   amendment   to   the 

provision 

for  Pool  be-  amendment. 

tween  ex-    ■ 

treme  West-        Resolved,  That  nothing  herein  shall  be  construed  as  affecting  or  modifying 
accepted.        the  Agreements  existing  between  the  Atlantic  &  Pacific  and  Southern  Pacific 
Companies. 


Pools  de- 
ferred. 


101 

Accepted,  and  included  in  the  amendment  by  the  authors 
thereof. 

The  Commissioner — Are  there  any  remarks  upon  the 
amendment? 

Mr.  Goddard — Question. 

During  the  progress  of  the  roll-call,  Mr.  Towne  said:  vote  upon 
There  are  some  points  in  that  resolution  which  we  would  and  amend- 
like  to  consider  before  voting  upon  it.  viaingfor 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  am  aware  that  during  the  progress  of 
calling  the  roll  no  other  motion  is  in  order,  but  we  do  not 
wish  to  vote  upon  this  proposition  at  present,  and  think 
that  on  Monday  morning  we  can  have  a  proposition  that 
perhaps  would  be  acceptable  to  all,  and  one  that  we  can  vote 
for,  and  if  by  unanimous  consent  I  can  make  a  motion  to 
adjourn,  I  would  move 

That  we  adjourn  until  Monday  morning,  11  o'clock. 

And  in  the  meantime  we  will  have  a  resolution  drawn, 
which  is  destined  to  meet  the  points  provided  for  in  the 
motions  of  Messrs.  Goddard  and  Kimball,  and  one  that  our 
people  think  we  can  vote  for  at  that  time.  We  might  pre- 
pare it  this  afternoon,  but  Mr.  Ristine  desires  to  look  the 
matter  over,  and  Mr.  Towne  wants  further  time  to  consider 
the  matter. 

Mr.  Ristine — You  need  not  wait  on  my  account. 

Mr.  Stubbs — If  we  put  this  resolution  in  now  you  are  not 
ready;  you  want  time  to  consider. 

Mr.  Ristine— No,  I  am  not  ready  for  that  resolution. 

Mr.  Kimball — Without  objection  the  motion  to  adjourn 
would  be  in  order.  If  we  unanimously  consent  we  can 
adjourn,  and  the  vote  as  far  as  called  can  be  expunged  from 
the  Secretary's  record,  so  that  when  we  meet  again  the 
original  question  will  stand,  and  hold  as  the  first  business 
for  disposition  at  the  assembling  of  the  meeting. 


102 

Mr.  Eccles  seconded  the  motion  to  adjourn. 
Adopted. 


Monday,  January  \§th. — Morning  Session. 


Commis- 
sioner's re- 


The   Commissioner— The  question    upon  Mr.    Kimball's 
marks.         amendment   and  Mr.   Goddard's   resolution   is   before   the 
meeting.     The  Secretary  will  please  continue  the  roll  call 
upon  the  amendment. 


Kesolution 
introduced 


Mr.  Stubbs — In  order  to  expedite  matters,  I  beg  to  submit 
tute'for  the    a  resolution  as  a  substitute  for  the  whole  matter. 

entire  mat- 

tne  meeung       Tlie  Commissioner— If  there  is  no  objection  we  will  take 
Sereonarks  UP  Mr-  Stubbs'  substitute  for  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Kim- 
ball, and  the  resolution  of  Mr.    Goddard.     Will   that   be 
satisfactory  to  the  authors  of  the  motions  referred  to  ? 

Mr.  Kimball — It  will  have  to  be  satisfactory.  He  has 
the  right  to  offer  a  substitute. 

Mr.  Stubbs  offered  the  following  as  a  substitute  for  the 
entire  matter  before  the  convention  : 

Resolved,  That  in  the  organization  of  the  two  Pools  heretofore  provided 
for  by  resolution  of  this  Association, 

First — They  shall  be  known  as  the  Eastern  and  Western  Pool  respectively . 

The  Eastern  Pool  shall  be  comprised  of  the  following  lines: 

No.  1 — Union  Pacific  Kailroad  and  its  Colorado  connections. 

No.  2— D.  &  R.  G.  Western  and  D.  &  R.  G.  Railway  and  the  Eastern  con- 
nections of  the  latter. 

No.  3 — A.  &  P.  R.  R.  and  Eastern  connections. 

No.  4— Southern  Pacific  R.  R.  and  connections  at  Deming. 

No.  5 — Southern  Pacific  R.  R.  and  connections  at  El  Paso. 

The  above  named  lines  comprising  the  Eastern  Pool  shall  each  contribute 
to  the  joint  purse  54  per  cent,  of  the  through  rate  agreed  upon  by  the  T.  C. 
A.  as  poolable. 

The  individual  roads  forming  each  line  shall  contribute  to  that  line's  share 
of  said  poolable  rate  as  hereinafter  provided. 

Those  forming  Lines  Nos.  1  and  2  shall  contribute  their  entire  share  of  the 
said  poolable  through  rate. 


103 


Those  forming  Line  No.  3  as  follows : 

The  connections  of  the  A.  &  P.  shall  contribute  their  entire  share  of  the 
said  pnolable  through  rate;  and  the  A.  &  P.  shall  contribute  the  remainder, 
or  sufficient  to  make  the  total  contribution  equal  to  54  per  cent,  of  the 
through  poolable  rate. 

Those  forming  Line  No.  4  as  follows: 

The  connections  of  the  S.  P.  at  Deming  shall  contribute  their  entire  share 
of  the  said  poolable  through  rate,  and  the  S.  P.  shall  contribute  the  remain- 
der, or  sufficient  to  make  the  total  contribution  of  the  line  equal  to  54  per 
cent,  of  the  through  poolable  rate. 

Those  forming  Line  No.  5  as  follows: 

The  connections  of  the  S .  P.  at  El  Paso  shall  each  contribute  their  entire 
proportion  of  the  through  rate  agreed  upon  as  poolable,  and  the  S.  P.  shall 
contribute  the  remainder,  or  sufficient  to  make  the  total  contribution  of  the 
line  equal  to  54  per  cent,  of  the  through  poolable  rate. 

Withdrawals  from  the  joint  purse  by  the  Koads  respectively  forming  each, 
line  shall  be  in  proportion  to  the  payments  made  by  each  to  the  lines'  con- 
tribution to  the  joint  purse. 

The  Western  Pool  shall  be  comprised  of  the  following  lines  i 

No.  1— Central  Pacific  E.  R. 

No.  2— A.  &  P.  R.  R.  and  its  Western  connections. 

No.  3— Southern  Pacific  R.  R. 

The  contributions  of  each  of  these  lines  to  the  joint  pur  se  shall  be  equal 
to  46  per  cent,  of  the  T.  C.  A.'s  through  rate  agreed  uppn  as  poolable. 

The  respective  contributions  of  the  roads  forming  Line  No.  2  shall  be  as 
follows: 

The  A.  &  P.  shall  contribute  its  entire  share  of  the  through  rate  agreed 
upon  as  poolable,  less  the  amount  it  shall  have  contributed  to  the  Eastern 
Pool. 

The  S.  P.  shall  contribute  its  entire  share  of  the  through  rate  agreed  upon 
as  poolable . 

The  withdrawals  by  the  roads  forming  Line  No.  2  shall  be  in  proportion  to 
each  road's  payments  to  the  line's  contribution  to  the  joint  purse. 

In  case  of  failure  to  agree  upon  percentages  to  be  awarded  to  each  road 
comprising  tho  Eastern  Pool,  the  question  to  be  referred  to  arbitration  on  or 
before  February  20th,  1885.  The  Arbitrator  to  be  chosen  on  or  before  Janu- 
ary 20th,  18S5;  the  decision  and  award  of  the  Arbitrator  to  be  binding  upon 
the  parties  hereto  from  January  1st,  1885,  and  thereafter  subject  to  90  days' 
notice  by  either  party. 

Resolved,  That  the  affairs  of  said  Eastern  and  Western  Pools  shall  be  ad- 
inini>k-red,  und  their  respective  accounts  kept  by  one  and  the  same  Com- 
missioner; that  the  expenses  of  the  Trans-Continental  Association  shall  be 
borne  jointly  by  the  several  members  of  the  said  Pools  in  proportion  to  their 
earnings  from  the  traffic  subject  to  the  T.C.A.,  or  as  may  hereafter  be  specific- 


104 

ally  provided  for;  and  that  the  Rates,  Rules  an 3  Regulations  of  the  T.  C.  A. 
shall  be  applied  to,  and  be  binding  equally  upon  the  said  Eastern  and 
Western  Pools  and  the  respective  members  thereof. 

Resolved,  That  the  subsidy  paid  the  Pacific  Mail  S.  S.  Co.,  and  all  kindred 
disbursements  ordered  by  the  T.  C.  A.  account  of  competition  common  to  all 
the  members  of  said  Association  shall  be  assessed  to,  and  paid  jointly  by, 
the  members  of  said  Eastern  and  Western  Pools  in  proportion  to  their  respec- 
tive earnings  from  the  traffic  involved,  oras  may  hereafter  be  specifically  pro- 
vided for;  likewise  in  same  manner  receipts  from  same  or  kindred  accounts 
shall  be  credited  to  the  individual  members  of  said  pools  in  proportion  to 
their  earnings. 

Mr.  Goddard — 'The  resolution  seems  perfectly  clear,  but 
it  occurred  to  me  that  possibly  the  question  might  arise 
whether  these  expenses,  when  divided  upon  the  earnings— 
whether  the  word  "earnings"  would  be  construed  to  mean 
after  the  settlement  of  the  Pool  or  business  carried.  The 
intent,  of  course, 

Mr.  Stubbs — The  intention  is,  of  course,  after  the  Pool 
Settlement  is  made,  and  if  it  is  not  clear  it  ought  to  be  made 
clear.  I  have  used  your  language,  "  or  as  may  hereafter  be 
specifically  provided  for."  We  will  take  care  of  that  when 
we  come  to  draft  the  Agreement.  This  is  only  a  resolution. 
I  said  "traffic  involved."  For  example,  the  .Northern 
Pacific  will  settle  on  San  Francisco,  you  understand;  for 
that  reason  I  did  not  say  "  gross  earnings." 

Mr.  Kistine — 'I  would  like  to  have  inserted : 

It  is  understood  that  nothing  herein  shall  interfere  with,  modify  or  change 
the  existing  Agreement  between  the  Southern  Pacific  and  Atlantic  &  Pacific 
Companies. 

Mr.  Stubbs — There  is  nothing  there  that  does.  All  I  can 
say  is  this,  that  it  is  a  Trans-Continental  matter.  It  cannot 
modify  that. 

Mr.  Ristine — That  is  all  right. 

The  resolution  was  submitted  to  vote,  resulting  in  its 
unanimous  adoption. 

[Note. — The  votes  of  the  Texas  &  Pacific  representative 
were  understood  to  be  subject  to  the  approval  of  Messrs- 


105 

Hoxie,  Olds  and  McCullough.  Two  amendments  offered  by 
Messrs.  Goddard  and  Kimball,  the  first  providing  for  refer- 
ence of  the  matter  of  percentages  to  arbitration,  and  the 
second  including  "Colorado  connections"  in  the  line  of  the 
Union  Pacific,  were  accepted  and  included  in  the  resolution. 
See  page  102.] 

The  Commissioner— Mr.  Stubbs'  resolution  having  been  SoneTpro- 
unanimously  accepted  and  adopted,  I  would  ask  if  it  is  not  ganizatlon. 
considered  advisable  to  proceed  with  the  reorganization  ? 

Mr.  Goddard — I  move —  Motion  to 

proceed 
That  the  next  business  be  the  election  of  an  Arbitrator  to  decide  these    with  the 
nnpstinns  election  of 

questions.  Arbitrator. 

Seconded  by  Mr.  Eccles. 

Subsequently  withdrawn. 

The  Commissioner— I  would  like  to  ask  the  members  a  f^JJJgJ? 
question.     The  Freight  Statements  are  in  such  shape  that  {^ade^on 
settlement  can  be  had  thereon  at  any  time.     The  question  Sat°d°state- 
is  now  whether  we  shall  hold  the  Freight  Statements  until  ment- 
the  Passenger  business  is  reported,  or  until  we  can  make 
a   Consolidated   Statement   showing    both   Passenger   and 
Freight. 

It  was  the  sense  of  the  meeting  that  settlement  be  made 
upon  a  consolidated  statement  of  both  Passenger  and  Freight 
earnings. 

Mr.  Towne  offered  the  following: 

Whereas,  At  a  meeting  of  General  Managers  of  the  Trans-Continental  As-   Proposition 

sociation,  held  at  Chicago  on  September  17,  1884,,  it  was  agreed  that  the  ques-   JheigJ°™rd 

tion  of  percentages  should  be  submitted  for  arbitration  to   Mr.  James  F.    for  October, 
m     ,  *  November 

Tucker;  and  and  Decem- 

Whereas,  the  findings  of  said  Arbitrator  were  evidently  based  upon  an  im-    ***>  *"d  de- 
perfect    knowledge  of   the  facts  and  a  misunderstanding  of  the    relations 
iiig  between  the  parties  interested,  as  shown  by  the  Award,  requiring 
certain  roads  to  pay  over  to  their  connections,   which  is  manifestly  unjust 
and  without  precedent  in  the  history  of  pooling  arrangements. 

fiesolved,  That  the  Award  be  ignored  in  so  far  that  for  the  months  of  Octo- 
ber, November  and  December  the  roads  carrying  in  excess  of  the  awarded 
percentage  be  allowed  for  such  excess  one  half  of  the  average  rate  per  ton  or 
per  passenger  before  making  settlement  with  the  roads  "short"  under  the 
Award. 


106 

Mr.  Stubbs — It  is  not  generally  contemplated  that  in  any 
pooling  agreements  large  balances  shall  be  interchanged,  and 
I  think  that  I  have  heard  from  nearly  every  representative  here 
since  they  arrived  that  there  was  a  very  great  mistake  made 
in  sending  this  matter  to  an  Arbitrator,  even  to  so  capable 
and  just  a  man  as  Mr.  Tucker,  and  forbidding  the  parties 
interested  making  any  statements  or  arguments  in  order  to  aid 
his  judgment.  We  believe  that  is  the  rock  he  split  upon,  and 
that  he  himself  would  not  now,  if  he  could  review  the  case 
in  the  light  of  subsequent  experience,  justify  the  Award. 
Now  it  requires  large  balances  to  be  exchanged.  In  our 
own  case  it  requires  the  Southern  Pacific  to  an  extent 
which  I  guess  all  will  admit  is  not  fair — is  not  just — to  pay 
to  Lines  east  of  them  out  of  its  earnings.  We  think  that  it 
ought  to  be  remedied,  notwithstanding  the  fact  that  our 
General  Manager  stated  when  he  gave  his  notice,  in  re- 
sponse to  an  enquiry  from  the  Commissioner,  that  he  pro- 
posed to  stand  by  the  Award.  That  is  to  say,  if  he  could 
get  no  relief.  He  did  not  propose  to  say  flatly:  We  shall 
not  stand  by  the  Agreement,  because  we  were  not  justly 
treated.  He  desires  me  to  say  now  that  he  intends  to  stand 
by  the  Award,  and  in  case  you  consider  that  you  are  justly, 
fairly  and  honestly  entitled  to  it,  why  we  shall  put  our  fin- 
gers in  our  mouths  and  see  what  solace  we  can  g6t  from 
sucking  them.  But  this  proposition  involves  simply  a 
larger  allowance  than  our  Agreement  provides  for  the  excess 
which  may  be  carried  by  any  road.  It  gives  practically 
about  the  cost  of  handling  to  the  Texas  &  Pacific,  the 
Union  Pacific  and  the  Southern  Pacific  for  the  excess 
which  they  carried,  and  is  submitted  to  you  as  an  equitable 
proposition,  one  that  you  can  all  afford  to  vote  for,  and  ought 
to  vote  for,  in  order  to  have  an  easy  conscience. 

Mr.  Towne — This  matter  as  it  now  stands  is  manifestly 
wrong  without  any  question.  There  is  no  representative 
here  but  who  will  say  that  the  results  have  proved  it  to  be 
wrong  in  fact  and  figures.  Now,  we  are  not  here  to  plead  the 
"  baby  act,"  by  any  manner  of  means.     If  there  is  any  one 


107 

of  you  that  desires  to  vote  in  the  negative,  because  be  thinks 
it  is  proper  to  vote  that  way,  because  lie  thinks  it  reason- 
able to  vote  that  way,  then  we  have  nothing  further  to  say. 
In  a  word,  if  there  are  any  of  you  who  feel  that  you  are 
going  to  get  more  under  this  decision,  than  you  have  a  right 
to,  but  because  Mr.  Tucker  has  so  awarded  you  are  entitled 
to  it;  then  let  it  rest  that  way.  I  would  like  to  hear  an  ex- 
pression upon  it.  I  make  this  proposition  with  the  con- 
dition that  in  case  of  anything  of  the  kind  occurring  in  the 
future,  and  it  is  found  in  any  subsequent  award,  that  the 
result  i^  as  unjust  to  you,  as  it  has  gone  against  us  in  this, 
you  will  find  us  disposed  to  do  what  is  fair  and  right  in  that 
as  well  as  in  all  other  things. 

Mr.  Goddard — In  view  of  the  circumstances,  would  it  not    Proposition 

to  re-submit 

be  the  proper  thing  to  re-submit  the  question  to  Mr.  Tucker  the  question 
as  a  matter  of  fairness  to  him  ?  I  believe  the  only  ground  tion- 
taken,  is  that  his  Award  is  unfair  solely  from  his  lack  of 
knowledge  of  the  situation.  I  do  not  think  there  is  any  one 
here  that  questions  his  integrity;  in  fact  it  has  so  been 
stated.  I,  for  one,  am  willing  that  the  question  of  per- 
centages from  October  1st  to  December  31st  be  re-submitted 
to  Mr.  Tucker,  each  line,  if  they  see  fit,  presenting  its  own 
statement  of  the  case  to  him. 

Mr.   Stubbs — We  will  accept  that  proposition. 

Mr.  Miller — Under  the  resolution  that  declared  Mr.  objection 
Tucker  as  the  Arbitrator  of  the  questions  under  the  Trans-  anddebato'' 
Continental  Pool,  the  questions  arising  under  the  Pool  of 
the  Iowa  Lines  were  also  included.  The  Burlington  System 
is  interested  in  several  Pools.  They  are  left  in  those  Pools, 
and  to  a  far  greater  extent  than  we  are  a  gainer  in  this, 
an> I  if  anything  is  to  be  resubmitted,  the  whole  business 
ought  to  be. 

Mr  —That  is  an  entirely  different  and  separate 

proposition. 

M  -We  would  have  to  take  the  whole  together. 

We  could  not  separate  it. 


thereou. 


108 

Mr.  Stubbs  —Is  it  fair  that  the  Central  Pacific  should  pay 
the  Burlington  for  business  done  possibly  in  Nebraska? 
The  understanding  was  that  Mr.  Tucker  was  to  arbitrate, 
but  there  were  two  distinct  questions. 

Mr.  Miller — That  is  very  true,  but  the  Awards  were 
made,  and  he  was  authorized  to  make  such  Awards  under 
the  one  resolution,  and  we  cannot  separate  them. 

Mr.  Stubbs — They  are  not  independent  in  that  respect. 
If  he  did  leave  you  short  in  the  Eastern  Pools  you  could 
have  applied  for  relief  under  your  Nebraska  Agreement,  if 
that  is  a  separate  agreement,  or  you  could  have  applied  for 
relief  under  your  Colorado  Agreement  without  prejudicing 
your  interest  uuder  this  Contract.  This  resolution,  it  seems 
to  me,  imposes  the  mildest  form  of  relief.  We  are  credited 
with  our  proportion  of  $4.80  per  ton  on  the  excess.  We  ask 
to  be  allowed  one-half  of  the  average  rate.  It  only  applies 
to  the  number  of  tons  we  carried  in  excess  of  the  Award. 

Mr.  Miller — It  is  a  very  liberal  proposition  if  we  take 
them  ultogether.  So  far  as  I  am  concerned  I  do  not  feel 
that  I  can  separate  this  Pool  from  others  that  were  arbitra- 
ted under  the  same  resolution. 

Mr.  Smith — Would  it  not  be  well  to  settle  up  October 
business  amicably  between  ourselves,  if  possible,  and  fix 
the  Award  to  apply  on  the  business  for  November  and  De- 
cember on  the  percentages  earned  in  October? 

Mr.  Stubbs— If  November  turns  out  contrary  to  this  show- 
ing for  October,  we  are  willing  that  this  resolution  shall 
apply  over  the  whole  term  of  the  Pool— October,  Novem- 
ber and  December — so  that  others  may  have  the  same  relief 
that  we  ask  for.  I  do  not  think  there  is  much  probability 
of  it,  though. 

Mr.  Eccles — Question. 
The  vote  stood  as  follows : 

Vote  upon 

r^oL0tTone'"       Ayes-C.  P.,  G.  H.  &  S.  A.,  S.  P.,  U.  P.-4. 

Nays— A.  T.  &  S.  F.,  A.  &  P..  B.  &  M.,  D.  &  R.  G.,  D. 
&R.  G.  W.,  T.&P.-6. 


109 

N.  P.  and  0.  R.  &  N.  not  voting. 
Declared  lost. 
Mr.  Goddyrd — I  would  like  to  request  that  when  we  meet  Motion  for 

.  continuous 

this  afternoon  we  continue  in  session  until  we  complete  the  session. 
reorganization,  with  but  short  recesses. 

Seconded  by  Mr.  Hooper. 

Adopted. 

Mr.  Goddard— I  move — 

That  the  first  business  to  come  before  this  meeting  npon  our  reassembling    Motion    to 
be  the  election  of  a  Commisssoner,  and  that  the  balloting  be  continued  until    commis- 
that  question  is  disposed  of.  sioner. 

Seconded  by  Mr.  Muir. 

Adopted. 

Recess  until  2  p.  m. 


Monday,  January  19^— Afternoon  Session. 

The  Commissioner — In  accordance  with  the  motion  adopt- 
ed prior  to  recess,  the  first  business  will  be  the  ballot  for  a 
Commissioner. 

Mr.  Eccles  offered  the  following : 

Resolved,  That  this  meeting  now  convene  in  Executive  Session,  and  that  Motion  to 
all  parties  not  members  of  the  Association  be  invited  to  withdraw  during  the  convene  in 
time  the  Commissioner  is  being  balloted  for.  sSSon,V ex- 

cluding 

Seconded  by  Mr.  Goddard.  terls.mem~ 

Adopted. 


executive  session. 
Meeting  called  to  order  afternoon  of  January  19th. 
S.  K.  Hooper  in  the  Chair.    W.  F.  White,  Secretary. 
The  Convention  proceeded  to  ballot  for  a  Commissioner.  oSSnJj1 

Bioner. 

On  the  eightieth  ballot  Mr.  Hanuaford  received  11  votes, 


110 

and  it  was  then  moved  that  a  unanimous  vote  be  cast  in  his 
favor  as  Commissioner.  The  unanimous  vote  of  the  Asso- 
ciation was  accordingly  cast  for  Mr.  Hannaford  on  the 
eighty-first  ballot. 

Mr.  Hannaford  stated  that  he  could  not  accept  the  posi- 
tion, and  balloting  was  resumed.  The  eighty-fourth  ballot 
was  reached  without  a  choice  being  made,  when  on  motion 
a  list  of  candidates  was  submitted,  and  those  receiving 
unanimous  vote  were  placed  in  nomination  for  the  Commis- 
sionership.     The  nominees  thus  chosen  were : 

W.  S.  Mellen,  A.  0.  Bird,  0.  W.  Smith,  A.  S.  Hughes 
and  J.  F.  Tucker. 

Four  ballots  were  then  taken,  making  eighty-eight. 

Mr.  Stubbs  then  withdrew  Mr.  Tucker's  name,  and  an- 
other ballot  was  cast,  on  which  Mr.  Mellen  received  three 
votes  and  Mr.  Smith  nine. 

A  record  of  all  of  the  ballots  and  list  of  names  submitted 
as  nominees  is  hereto  attached  and  marked  "Exhibit  A." 

The  meeting  then  adjourned  until  ten  o'clock  the  follow- 
ing morning. 


Tuesday,  January  20th. 

Meeting  called  to  order  at  10  a.  m. 

S.  K.  Hooper  in  the  Chair.     W.  F.  White,  Secretary. 

The  following  resolution  offered  by  Mr.  Kistine,  seconded 
by  Mr.  Miller  : 

"  As  it  seems  impossible  to  elect  a  permanent  Commissioner,  be  it 
Resolved,  Tbat  Mr.  L.  G.  Cannon  be  continued  as  Acting  Commissioner 
until  the  next  regular  or  special  meeting  of  this  Association." 

Declared  lost. 

Resolution  offered  by  Mr.  Stubbs,  seconded  by  Mr.  Smith  : 

Resolved,  That  the  Chair  appoint  a  Committee  of  Three  to  suggest  a  name 
for  Commissioner  of  the  Association. 

Carried. 


Ill 

The  Chair  appointed  Messrs.  Kimball,  Stubbs  and  Ris- 
tine. 

Mr.  Kimball,  as  Chairman  of  the  Committee,  reported  that 
they  had  unanimously  agreed  to  offer  the  name  of  C.  W. 
Smith  to  the  Association  as  Commissioner  for  the  ensuing 
year,  and  suggested  the  election  of  an  Executive  Committee. 

The  report  was  received  and  the  Committee  discharged. 

Resolution  offered  by  Mr.  Stubbs  as  follows : 

Resolved,  First— That  C.  W.  Smith  be  elected  Commissioner  of  this  Asso-    Election  of 
'  Mr.  C.  w. 

ciation  for  one  year.  Smith  for 

Second— That  a  committee  of  six  be  elected,  who  shall  have  power  among    skmer!8 
other  things  to  appoint  a  Commissioner  in  the  event  of  Mr.  Smith's  declina- 
tion. 

Carried. 

The  following  resolution  was  then  offered  by  Mr.  Towne 
and  seconded  by  Mr.  Smith  : 


Resolved,  That  Messrs.  George  Olds,  T.  L.  Kimball,  J.  F.  Goddard,  J.  C.    Appoint- 
Stubbs,  J.  M.  Hannaford  and  A.  S.  Hughes  constitute  the  Executive  Com-    Executive" 
mittee,  for  the  period  of  the  Association.  Committee. 

Carried. 

The  Executive  Committee  were  then  instructed  to  confer 
with  Mr.  C.  W.  Smith,  with  a  view  to  his  accepting  the  po- 
sition of  Commissioner. 

On  motion  the  Executive  Session  then  adjourned,  and  the 
regular  meeting  of  the  Association  was  resumed  at  11.30  a.m. 

Note— The  following  telegram  was  forwarded  to  Mr,  C. 
W.  Smith  at  Richmond,  Va. 

You  have  been  unanimously  tendered  the  Commissionership  of  the  Trans  - 
Continental  Association,  and  salary  of  twelve  (12)  thousand  dollars  per  an- 
num named.    Will  you  accept  ?    Immediate  answer  solicited. 
Signed, 

Thos.  L.  Kimball, 
J.  M.  Hannafobd, 
J.  C.  Stubbs, 
J.F.Goddabd. 

Of  Executive  Committee. 


112 

Tuesday  January  20t7i — Morning  Session. 
Meeting  convened  at  12  m. 
All  members  represented. 
The  Acting  Commissioner  in  the  chair. 
Mr.  Hooper  submitted  the  following: 

Board  of  Resolved,  That  we  now  proceed  to  the  selection  of  a  Board  of  Arbitration, 

Arbitration     ^0  whom  the  question  of  percentages  as  provided  for  in  the  resolution  form- 
Pool—  ing  the  Trans-Continental  Association  Pools,  shall  be  submitted.    That  said 

See  page  102  goar^  0f  Arbitration  shall  consist  of  one  General  Freight  Agent,  one  Gene- 
ral Passenger  Agent,  and  a  third  person  who  shall  act  as  Eeferee  and  Chair- 
man of  said  Board. 

Seconded  by  Mr.  Goddard. 

Adopted. 

Mr.  Goddard— I  move — 

That  a  Committee  of  Three  be  appointed  to  select  names  for  the  Board  of 
Arbitrators. 

Seconded  by  Mr.  Stubbs. 

Carried. 

The  Commissioner  —  I   would  name  Messrs.    Goddard, 
Stubbs  and  Kimball. 

Mr.  Eistine — I  move — 

That  the  Committee  now  retire. 

Adopted. 

Mr.  Miller — I  move — 

That  this  meeting  adjourn  until  2  p.  m.,  or  until  an  agreement  is  reached 
by  the  Committee. 

Seconded  by  Mr.  Eccles. 
Carried. 


113 

Tuesday,  January  20t7i— Afternoon  Session. 
Meeting  convened  at  2  p.  m. 
All  members  represented. 
By  Mr.  Goddard  : 

Your  Committee  beg  leave  to  report  that  they  have  unanimously  agreed   J^portof 
upon  the  following  parties  as  Arbitrators  to  decide  the  matter  of  percentages    Cn  Board  of 
in  the  Eastern  Pool:  Arbitration. 

J.  F.  Tucker, 

D.  S.  Gray, 

W.  B.  Shattuc. 

The  first  mentioned  to  act  as  Chairman. 

Your  Committee  would  further  recommend,  in  case  of  failure  to  act  of 
either  of  the  parties  specified,  that  the  power  to  fill  vacancies  be  placed  in 
the  hands  of  the  Executive  Committee. 

Mr.  Miller — I  move — 

That  the  report  of  the  Committee  be  accepted  and  the  Committee  dis- 
charged. 

Seconded  by  Mr.  Hannaford. 

Adopted. 

Mr.  Miller — I  move — 

That  the  parties   named  by  the    Committee  to  act  as  Arbitrators  be  ac-    Report  of 
cepted   by  the  Association,  with  conditions  specified   by  the  Chairman  of   adopted166 
the  Committee. 

Seconded  by  Mr.  Eccles. 

Carried  unanimously. 

Mr.  Goddard — I  understand,    Mr.    Chairman,   that  any  Arguments 

and  all  arguments  which  are  to  be  presented  to  the  Board  Sed  t5u 

of  Arbitrators  must  be  presented  on  or  before  February  10th.  Arbitration. 
Is  that  the  record  of  the  meeting? 

The  Secretary — Yes. 

The  Commissioner — Is  it  understood,  Mr.  Goddard,  that 
any  member  has  the  right  to  give  them  any  information  they 
may  desire  ? 


114 


Communi- 
cation ex. 
W.  T.  Cole- 
man &  Co., 
and  others, 
asking  spe- 
cial rates; 
debate 
thereon. 


Mr.  Goddard. — I  presume  it  is  understood  that  each  road 
can  make  its  own  argument.  That  is  the  general  under- 
standing, and  holds  unless  forbidden. 

Agreed. 

The  Commissioner  introduced  letter  from  Messrs.  W.  T. 
Coleman  &  Co.,  requesting  a  personal  conference  with  the 
Association. 

Mr.  Goddard — It  seems  to  me,  Mr.  Chairman,  that  the 
proper  way  to  dispose  of  all  these  matters  is  to  appoint  a 
committee  to  take  up  the  question  of  such  special  rates  as 
may  be  thought  necessary  and  advisable  by  the  Association, 
in  connection  with  the  Pacific  Coast  and  other  Associations 
east  of  the  Kiver. 

Mr.  Miller — Would  it  not  be  a  good  idea  to  let  Mr. 
Johnson  of  that  firm  come  here  and  see  what  he  has  to  say  ? 

Mr.  Goddard — I  have  no  objection,  if  we  had  time,  but  we 
have  so  many  important  matters  for  discussion. 

The  Commissioner — I  have  about  forty  letters,  more  or  less, 
of  a  similar  character — all  bearing  on  special  rates,  and 
some  very  important  ones. 

Mr.  Goddard — Can  these  letters  be  answered  until  the 
relations  of  our  Eastern  connections  are  fully  determined  ? 

The  Commissioner — A  number  of  the  letters  rest  in  that 
shape.  You  have  agreed  that  specials  are  necessary,  and 
that  if  your  connections  will  not  join,  you  would  have  to 
foear  them  yourselves. 

Mr.  Goddard  thought  it  would  leave  the  matter  in  very 
bad  shape  if  shippers  should  become  aware  of  it,  as  claims 
would  follow;  he  thought  that  the  matters  referring  to  Mis- 
souri Eiver  traffic  could  be  settled  very  quickly. 

The  Commissioner — I  suppose  matters  of  that  character 
will  be  brought  up  at  our  Freight  Meeting. 


115 

Mr.  Stubbs — These  questions  will  result  in  claims.  Is  it 
not  necessary  to  decide  what  action  we  will  take  for  the 
purpose  of  securing  co-operation  on  the  part  of  the  lines 
east  of  the  Trans-Continental  Association.  It  was  only  in- 
formal talk  the  other  day,  favoring  the  appointment  of  a 
committee  to  wait  upon  them.  Let  me  add  in  this  connec- 
tion, I  understand  that  the  merchants  here,  especially  the 
larger  shippers,  do  not  regard  the  matter  as  settled,  and  are 
expecting  some  action  on  the  part  of  this  Association  which 
will  definitely  dispose  of  the  question  so  far  as  their  minds 
are  concerned,  as  to  whether  they  will  stand  on  the  Tariff,  or 
hope  for  some  modification  which  will  enable  them  to  con- 
tinue their  tonnage  to  the  rail  lines. 

Mr.  Miller  asked  if  it  was  thought  that  many  of  the  mer- 
chants would  resort  to  the  Cape  Horn  Route. 

Mr.  Stubbs— Yes. 

Mr.  Miller — Why? 

Mr.  Stubbs  —  Simply  because  they  can  ship  so  much 
cheaper  that  way. 

Mr.  Miller — Take  the  Chicago  merchants  for  example. 
They  do  not  patronize  Canal  and  Lake. 

Mr.  Stubbs — What  we  have  to  be  guided  by  is  our  expe- 
rience. We  had  to  make  very  low  rates.  We  had  to  im- 
pose upon  them  a  restraint  in  the  shape  of  an  ironclad  obli- 
gation on  their  part  not  to  use  the  Cape  Horn  Route,  and 
even  under  that,  some  of  them  did  not  always  use  us  fairly. 

Mr.  Miller—  I  am  willing  to  be  guided  by  you,  gentle- 
men, having  the  experience  in  this  business.  My  opinion 
is.  however,  that  few  will  resort  to  the  Cape  Horn  Route. 
They  cannot  afford  to  do  it  in  this  generation. 

The  Commissioner— I  guess  they  are  getting  20  per  cent, 
off  all  round  now,  from  what  I  can  hear.  It  is  common 
talk  on  the  street. 


116 


Committee 
to  interview 
Eastern 
Lines,  and  if 
possible  se- 
cure their 
co-opera- 
tion. 


Motion 
upon  in- 
structions 
to  Commit- 
tee, and  ar- 
gument 
thereon. 


Mr.  Stubbs — Well,  but  that  is  not  to  coutinue.  At  least 
I  hope  not. 

By  Mr.  Ristine. 

B*solved,  That  a  Committee  of  Three  be  appointed  to  confer  with  the 
Pacific  Coast  Association,  the  Middle  and  Western  States  Association  and 
the  Trunk  Lines,  with  authority  to  negotiate  with  said  Associations  for  a  lim- 
ited number  of  special  contracts  on  a  percentage  basis,  and  to  arrange  with 
said  Associations  on  a  mutual  and  joint  plan  for  the  making  of  rates,  and 
proper  conduct  of  the  business,  in  which  all  are  interested. 

Seconded  by  Mr.  Miller. 

Adopted  unanimously. 

Subsequently  withdrawn.     (See  page  123.) 

The  Commissioner — I  shall  appoint  Messrs.  Hannaford, 
Gray  and  Ristine. 

Mr.  Stubbs — The  Central  Pacific  will  not  be  represented 
on  the  Committee.  You  all  heard  Mr.  Towne  say  so  a  day 
or  two  ago.     We  have  expended  our  labors. 

Mr.  Ristine — Will  you  stand  on  anything  the  Committee 
may  do  ? 

Mr.  Stubbs — Yes,  if  they  do  right.  I  would  suggest  that 
Mr.  Kimball  be  substituted  for  Mr.  Gray. 

The  Commissioner— It  is  so  ordered. 
Mr.  Stubbs — Mr.   Chairman,   I  move 

That  the  Committee  be  instructed  that  no  engagements  as  to  special  con- 
tracts or  discounts  from  the  regular  tariff  on  a  percentage  basis  be  made, 
unless  made  to  apply  equally  from  all  points,  or  unless  an  agreement  can  be 
had  with  the  Pacific  Coast  Association,  the  Middle  and  "Western  States  Asso- 
ciation, the  Trunk  Lines,  and  the  New  England  Lines  jointly;  that  we  do 
not  leave  it  in  the  power  of  the  Committee  to  say  if  they  can  make  an  en- 
gagement with  the  Pacific  Coast  Association  while  the  lines  east  fail  to 
concur,  that  the  lines  west  of  Chicago  will  make  these  discounts  on  their 
own  responsibility. 

Mr.  Miller — I  second  the  motion. 

Mr.  Goddard — To  what  do  you  refer  ? 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  refer  to  this :    You  cannot  well  make  a  dis- 


117 

count  on  Chicago  business  originating  there,  or  on  Pitts- 
burgh business  originating  there,  and  still  leave  the  Eastern 
business  out  of  the  question.  I  think  the  business  of  any 
particular  class  can  hardly,  scarcely  be  considered  as  con- 
fined to  one  territory. 

Mr.  Goddard  — It  seems  to  me  that  there  is  little  use  in 
appointing  a  committee  with  their  hands  tied  in  that  way. 
If  we  are  not  able  to  take  care  of  the  whole  of  the  business, 
that  is  no  good  reason  why  we  should  not  take  care  of  part  if 
that  is  necessary.  In  other  words,  failing  with  the  Trunk 
Lines,  I  see  no  reason  why  we  should  not  take  care  of  Pitts- 
burgh business  or  traffic  from  Buffalo,  Cleveland,  Chicago, 
St.  Louis  or  any  other  point,  provided  it  is  done  at  remuner- 
ative rates.  There  may  be  no  necessity  for  it.  If  not,  I  am 
perfectly  willing  to  leave  it  in  the  hands  of  the  Committee 
to  decide.  Their  interests  are  sufficiently  large  to  warrant 
their  acting  cautiously  in  the  matter. 

Mr.  Miller — Don't  you  think  we  could  take  the  business 
from  the  West  at  the  Tariff? 

Mr.  Goddard — I  don't  know;  that  is  for  the  Committee 
to  decide. 

Mr.  Stubbs — My  reasons  for  offering  that  motion  are 
these :  In  the  first  place,  there  is  scarcely  any  class  of  busi- 
ness that  is  limited  to  a  particular  territory.  There  may  be 
some,  but  you  will  find  that  Chicago  competes  with  Pitts- 
burgh, and  that  Pittsburgh  competes  with  New  York,  and  even 
witli  New  England  on  some  classes  of  freight.  That  is  true  on 
Iron  Manufactures,  true  upon  Agricultural  Implements.  If 
we  can  take  care  of  the  business  from  the  Atlantic  Coast 
tnd  Atlantic  Seaboard  on  our  Open  Tariff,  we  can  certainly 
take  care  of  the  business  west  of  there.  We  have  in 
adopting  the  new  Tariff,  scaled  the  rates  very  much  in  favor 
of  Western  points  as  compared  with  any  previous  tariffs  we 
have  had,  so  the  probabilities  are  that  if  the  rates  are  fair 
or  reasonable,  and  rather  likely  to  take  the  business  from 
the  Atlantic  Coast,   they  are  more  likely  to  answer  the  pur- 


118 

pose  from  the  West.  There  is  not  the  same  necessity  for 
conferring  with  the  Western  Lines  upon  Western  business 
as  there  is  with  the  Trunk  Lines  aud  all  the  lines  on  the 
Atlantic  Seaboard  business. 

Mr.  Ristine — To  use  an  illustration,  in  our  conference 
with  the  Middle  and  Western  States  Association,  as  to  the 
rate  on  Nails,  they  were  willing  to  make  a  rate  of  $1,  but 
they  said  that  if  we  put  in  a  scaling  basis  of  10  per  cent,  we 
could  make  a  90-cent  rate  net.  Now,  under  your  motion 
we  have  to  keep  it  at  $1  in  carloads. 

Mr.  Stubbs — If  you  will  show  me  how  you  cannot  do  that 
under  my  resolution,  I  will  confess  to  it.  I  simply  take  up 
what  the  Lines  themselves  said,  that  if  there  were  to  be 
reductions  or  discounts,  they  should  apply  equally  upon  all 
roads. 

Mr.  Ristine— That  we  have  not  got.  Take  the  regular 
rates. 

Mr.  Stubbs— If  you  have  $1.25  from  New  York  and  $1.15 
from  Pittsburgh,  you  can  make  a  discount  of  10  per  cent., 
and  it  will  apply  not  only  from  New  York,  but  it  will  apply 
to  Pittsburgh  and  it  will  apply  to  Chicago.  If  you  have  a 
90-cent  rate  or  a  $1  rate  in  carloads  from  Pittsburgh,  the 
discount  can  be  made  to  apply  to  that  just  as  well.  The 
resolution  does  not  comprehend  making  the  rates  the  same 
from  all  points,  but  it  does  comprehend  and  does  intend  to 
make  the  rates  relatively  the  same;  that  is,  that  the  rela- 
tions established  by  the  tariff  shall  be  maintained. 

Mr.  Ristine — Suppose  the  Middle  and  Western  States 
and  Pacific  Coast  Associations  consent  to  a  shave  of  the 
Iron  rates  10  per  cent,  from  Pittsburgh.  As  I  understand 
your  resolution,  we  cannot  do  that  unless  we  can  scale  10  per 
cent,  from  New  York. 

Mr.  Stubbs— Unless  the  Trunk  Lines  and  New  England 
Lines  also  agree  to  the  Contract  Plan. 

Mr.  Miller — It  would  not  be  necessary. 


119 

Mr.  Stcbbs—  If  the  Committee  goes  there  and  represents 
to  the  Eastern  Associations  the  necessities  of  the  case,  first 
the  Pacific  Coast  Association,  then  the  Middle  and  Western 
States  Association,  and  if  they  can  induce  them  to  meet 
their  views,  they  could  join  these  associations  in  a  request 
upon  the  Atlantic  Seaboard  Lines;  then  it  would  very  likely 
be  accomplished,  more  likely  than  upon  any  other  course. 
I  think  none  will  deny  that  if  there  is  any  virtue  in  the  Con- 
tract Plan,  that  if  there  is  any  necessity  whatever  for  any  dis- 
counts from  the  Open  Tariff,  that  necessity  applies  to  the 
Atlantic  Coast  more  than  to  any  other  portion  of  our  line, 
because  if  is  nearer  to  Cape  Horn  competiton  that  requires 
the  reduction.  Now,  then,  the  Atlantic  seaboard  man  has 
an  advantage  of  the  Western  man,  therefore,  the  New  York 
manufacturer  can  ship  via  Cape  Horn  much  cheaper  than 
the  Pittsburgh  man  can,  because  he  has  something  to  add 
for  the  rail  service  to  New  York. 

Mr.  Eistine — We  might  see  the  necessity  of  making  a  75 
cent  rate  on  Iron  from  Pittsburgh. 

Mr.  Stubbs — We  have  been  restricted  to  $1  by  the  Trunk 
Lines. 

Mr.  Goddard — That  is  all  true.  You  start  out  with  the 
proposition  that  the  present  rates  from  the  seaboard  with- 
out Special  Contracts  will  result  in  throwing  all  the  business 
to  the  Clippers,  it  will  result  in  assorting  and  sending  heavy 
goods  that  way.  That  is  a  matter  of  truth.  I  do  not 
dispute  that  proposition  at  all,  but  admit  it  as  the  fact; 
then  the  question  is,  do  we  want  the  Pittsburgh,  the  Buffalo, 
the  Chicago,  the  Cincinnati  business  to  go  by  Clipper? 

Mr.  Stubbs— It  don't  follow  that  it  will  do  it.  There  is 
less  likelihood  of  Pittsburgh,  Chicago,  Buffalo  and  Cincin- 
nati business  going  via  (Jape  Horn  than  there  is  of  Pough- 
keepsie,  Auburn,  Jersey  City  or  New  England  freight  going 
that  way. 

Mr.  Goddard— Is  not  that  a  proper  subject  to  leave  in 
the  hands  of  the  Committee  ? 


120 
Mr.  Stubbs—  I  do  not  think  so. 

Mr.  Hannaford— Would  the  Committee  not  be  more 
likely  to  get  concessions  from  the  Trunk  Lines  sooner  if 
they  secured  such  concessions  from   the  interior  lines  first? 

Mr.  Stubbs— I  do  not  know  as  to  that.  It  might  be  that 
there  had  been  a  failure  to  secure  what  you  desired.  It  might 
be  that  by  pursuing  a  policy  of  discrimination  against  the  At- 
lantic Seaboard  you  could  eventually  prevail  upon  the  Trunk 
Lines  to  do  this  thing,  but  I  think  a  policy  of  lower  rates 
under  a  Contract  Plan  from  the  West  would  be  more  apt  to 
incense  the  Trunk  Lines  and  influence  them  to  withdraw 
from  any  through  rates.  I  really  think  that  the  labor  of 
this  Committee  should  be  applied  as  upon  the  Trunk  Lines — 
go  right  down  to  New  York,  and  in  the  event  of  failure 
there,  if  we  are  going  to  be  cut  off  on  the  Atlantic  Seaboard, 
then  I  should  say  that  we  had  better  try  it  from  all  points 
for  a  while  on  the  Open  Tariff.  That  is  my  judgment  in  the 
matter;  and  moreover  you  will  find — I  know  you  will  find 
this,  just  as  though  I  had  the  merchants  right  here  to  swear 
to  it — that  you  cannot  make  a  contract  with  a  large  firm  in 
this  city  binding  them  to  ship  exclusively  by  rail,  and  that, 
I  understand,  is  to  be  the  condition  of  this  discount,  un- 
less you  can  give  him  a  specialty — some  discount  on  his 
Atlantic  Seaboard  business  where  he  wants  it  most.  You 
would  have  to  cover  all  their  business.  I  have  been  too 
long  in  this  business  not  to  understand  just  what  you  have 
to  do. 

Mr.  Hannaford — We  are  conducting  this  business  now 
upon  an  entirely  different  plan  to  that  which  has  ruled  in 
the  past. 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  do  not  understand  it  so.  As  1  understand 
this  proposition,  it  is  to  undertake  to  make  the  same  sort  of 
contract  that  we  formerly  made,  only  limiting  it  to  a  few  of 
the  larger  houses. 

Mr.  Kistine  — I  think  all  will  concede  that  it  is  desirous  to 


121 

give  shippers  more  Cape  Horn  privileges  than  they  had  in 
the  past,  certainly  on  articles  of  Iron,  etc. 

Mr.  Miller— I  think  we  would  all  be  better  off  if  we  did. 

Mr.  Goddard — This  evidently  resolves  itself  into  a  ques- 
tion of  confidence.  If  there  is  no  confidence  in  this  Com- 
mittee, why  not  recall  your  action  ?  If  we  have  no  confi- 
dence in  our  Committee,  we  had  better  dismiss  them  and 
appoint  a  new  set. 

Mr.  Eistixe — Mr.  Kimball,  what  are  your  views  on  this 
subject? 

Mr.  Kimball — My  impression  is  that  we  will  have  to  make 
our  fight  first  with  the  Trunk  Lines  and  the  New  England 
Lines,  and,  as  you  know,  I  am  in  favor  of  a  Special  Contract 
system — always  have  been.  I  should  work  to  re-establish 
that  Contract  Plan  from  the  seaboard  and  to  get  a  goodly 
number  of  Special  Contracts — take  the  larger  houses  and 
hold  them  to  the  all-rail  lines.  If  we  succeed  in  that,  the 
balance  of  the  commission  of  that  Committee  is  a  very  sim- 
ple one,  easily  accomplished. 

Mr.  Goddard— Failing  in  that,  what  would  you* do  with 
the  other  business  ? 

Mr.  Kimball— I  would  scale  the  West-bound  rates  more 
than  your  present  tariff  scales  them  and  make  them  Open 
rates. 

Mr.  Goddard — That  meets  the  proposition;  that  meets 
my  ideas. 

Mr.  Ristine— That  is  all  right. 

Mr.  Miller — It  seems  to  me  the  best  thing  to  do  is  to 
make  rates  as  low  as  we  can  afford  to  carry  the  stuff,  and 
we  shall  carry  it  by  rail.  I  do  not  think  there  will  be  any 
Cape  Horn  business  of  any  volume  on  low  rates  that 
way. 

Mr.  Stubbs— The  only  way  to  test  this  thing  is  by  experi- 


122 

iment;  it  would  be  pretty  costly,  but  I  think  we  had  better 
try  it. 

Mr.  Miller — Mr.  Stubbs,  my  opinion  is  formed  from  my 
own  personal  experience.  I  was  in  business  in  St.  Louis 
some  years  ago.  I  could  ship  Nails  from  Wheeling  to  St. 
Louis  at  6  cents  a  keg.  I  shipped  by  rail  at  20  cents  a  keg. 
It  was  money  in  my  pocket,  as  I  figured  it,  to  carry  a  light 
stock  of  Nails  in  St.  Louis  at  20  cents,  as  against  a  heavy 
stock  at  6  cents,  and  I  believe  that  the  merchants  of  San 
Francisco  will  look  at  this  transaction'  in  a  similar  manner, 
at  the  same  time  holding  out  the  threat  of  Cape  Horn.  I 
believe  an  experiment  will  reveal  their  preference  and  use 
of  the  Trunk  Lines  in  the  handling  of  their  business. 

Mr.  Stubbs— As  I  have  said  before,  we  are  launching  on 
an  experiment.  If  you  do  not  want  to  reach  it  by  a  Contract 
Plan,  we  can  try  the  Open  Tariff.  If  you  are  going  to  try 
Contract  Plan,  we  want  to  try  it  upon  the  business  that 
needs  it  most— the  Atlantic  Coast  business.  I  go  further, 
so  far  as  our  interests  are  concerned.  If  we  cannot  get 
Specials  from  the  Atlantic  seaboard,  we  don't  want  them 
at  all. 

Mr.  Kistine — Now,  take  the  matter  of  application  to  the 
Pacific  Coast  Association  for  rates;  we  cannot  obtain 
prompt  answers.  We  should  arrange  with  them  so  as  to  get 
prompt  replies. 

Mr.  Stubbs — Is  it  your  object  to  place  the  naming  of 
West-bound  rates  entirely  in  their  hands,  without  confer- 
ence here  ? 

Mr.  Kistine — No. 

Mr.  Stubbs — Is  it]  the  object  to  leave  the  matter  in  the 
hands  of  our  Commissioner  ? 

Mr.  Ristine — Yes,  so  far  as  we  can,  or  to  whoever  it  is 
decided — as  it  is  now.  We  should  arrange  matters  so  that 
we  can  work  more  promptly  and  harmoniously  with  them. 


123 

Mr.  Stubbs— I  think  that  it  is  all  very  well  for  this  com- 
mittee to  arrange  for  a  prompt  reply  to  any  communication 
which  our  Association  may  address  to  either  or  all  of  these 
Associations,  but  to  go  and  make  any  special  dicker  as  to 
the  right  to  make  rates,  I  do  not  believe  we  want  to  do  that. 
Mr.  Ristine,  so  far  as  your  resolution  relates  to  Special  Con- 
tracts, would  you  have  any  objection  to  wording  it,  instead 
of  "authority  to  negotiate,"  "that  this  committee  be  ap- 
pointed to  wait  upon  these  lines  for  the  purpose  of  securing 
from  them  authority,"  etc.? 

Mr.  Ristine — Change  it  any  way  you  like. 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  can  write  a  substitute  for  yours,  but  do 
not  want  to  have  a  row  about  it.  Mr.  Chairman,  Mr.  Eis- 
tine's  resolution,  as  I  understand  it,  wras  unanimously  car- 
ried . 

The  Commissioner — Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  did  not  consider  the  matter  carefully  or  Motion  to 
read  it  carefully  when  I  voted  for  it,  and  I  now  wish  to  have   j^j^jjjf 
the  vote  upon  that  resolution  reconsidered  for  the  purpose  JSbmiVtee 
of  offering  a  substitute.    I  don't  know  but  that  the  members   j£th]Ef2t. 
would  accept  this  as  a  substitute,  but  I  would  like  to  read   SSd  sSSSi- 
that  which  I  propose  to  offer  before  I  make  the  motion  for   JjjJethere- 
reconsideration,  in  order  that  you  may  know  why  the  idea 
is  to  make  the  duties  of  the  Committee  specific  and  confine 
it  to  certain  lines,  not  to  give  them  powers  to  range  all  over 
the  field  of  the  tariff,  making  rules  and  regulations. 

Mr.  Stubbs  read  the  following : 

Resolved,  That  a  Committee  of  Three  be  appointed  to  confer  with  the  Pacific 
Coast  Association,  the  Middle  &  Western  States  Association  and  the  Now  York 
Trunk  and  New  England  Lines  for  the  purpose  of  obtaining  from  them  au- 
thority to  make  a  limited  number  of  special  freight  contracts,  upon  such 
fetRM  and  conditions  as  the  business  demands;  that  these  contracts  be  made 
upon  the  basis  of  a  discount  from  the  Tariff  rates,  and  said  discount  shall  apply 
from  all  point-. 

Mr.  Stubbs — Now,  for  the  purpose  of  offering  that  resolu- 
tion, I  move  a  reconsideration  of  Mr.  Eistine's  resolution. 


124 


As  to  San 
Francisco 
arrange- 
ments ap- 
plying to 
Portland. 


Seconded  by  Mr.  Kimball. 

Carried. 

Mr.  Hannaford — I  would  like  to  ask,  in  that  connection, 
if  it  is  understood  that  a  limited  number  of  contracts  as  ac- 
corded to  San  Francisco  will  also  be  accorded  to  Portland? 

The   Commissioner— I  should  so  construe  it. 

Mr.  Stubbs — My  idea  would  be  that  whatever  is  decided 
with  respect  to  San  Francisco,  so  far  as  West-bound  is  con- 
cerned, would  apply  equally  to  Portland.  I  suppose  it  to 
be  the  intention  to  provide  as  we  have  in  the  past  that  San 
F1rancisco  and  Portland  shall  be  the  same,  aud  I  think  that 
would  cover  it . 

Mr.  Muir — There  would  have  to  be  a  provision  about  that 
between  the  Oregon  Short  Line,  the  Northern  Pacific  and 
the  O.  B.  &  N.  I  want  that  put  in,  as  there  is  a  provision 
under  our  Contract  in  connection  with  that  matter. 

Mr.  Hannaford — So  far  as  the  principle  with  the  Trans- 
Continental  Association  is  concerned,  I  simply  want  to 
know  if  it  is  understood  that  any  similar  interests  at  Port- 
land can  be  protected  in  the  same  manner  as  they  are  in  San 
Francisco. 

Mr.  Muir — As  I  understand  it,  we  can  always  duplicate  at 
Portland  what  is  done  in  San  Francisco. 

Mr.  Shelby — If  we  make  200  Contracts  in  San  Fran- 
cisco, you  should  have  the  right  to  make  that  number  in 
Portland. 

Mr.  Goddard — You  should  have  the  right  to  make  all  that 
are  necessary. 

Mr.  Stubbs  —  If  that  is  understood,  you  should  have 
that  understanding  with  the  Trunk  Lines  in  your  negotia- 
tions. 

Mr.    Shelby— If  you  agree  that  200  Contracts  would  be 


125 

the  maximum  to  be  made,  and  it  was  understood  that  your 
reference  was  to  San  Francisco,  Portland  would  be  left 
out. 

Mr.  Mum — We  could  arrange  so  as  to  make  a  comparative 
number  in  Portland. 

Mr.  Shelby — If  they  should  agree  to  make  200  and  no 
more,  where  would  Portland  be?  We  should  have  some 
understanding. 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  suppose  that  if  we  should  make  contracts 
here  with  the  Woodenware  men,  the  Hardware  men,  the 
Grocery  men,  similar  interests  at  Portland  should  have 
precisely  the  same  rates  and  on  the  same  conditions. 

Mr.  Hannaford — You  say  "on  the  same  conditions." 
Now,  a  tonnage  limitation  might  be  put  on  at  San  Francisco 
that  we  could  not  duplicate  up  there. 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  don't  think  that  ought  to  be.  I  don't  think 
it  would  be  done.  There  should  be  a  broad  understanding 
that  you  can  protect  your  trade. 

Mr.  Hannaford— That  is  all  we  ask. 

Mr.  Ristine—  You  say  "  from  all  points."    Do  you  mean  Debate 
from  local  points  too  ?  ?ePsomtion 

re  Commit- 

Mr.  Stubbs — No.     I  mean  from  common  points  of  course,  w5h°East-er 
from  which  the  Tariff  rates  apply. 

Mr.  Ristine — It  would  be  well  to  state  that;  it  might  be 
susceptible  of  misinterpretation. 

Mr.  Stubbs — If  it  is  not  plain,  you  can  make  it  plain,  or 
I  will  make  it  plain.  Now,  where  the  Tariff  may  name 
rates  from  any  particular  point,  the  discount  might  be 
made  to  apply  from  that  point;  but  if  you  want  to  know 
whether  I  mean  in  case  it  originates  at  a  local  point  on  one 
of  the  Trunk  Lines  which  take  an  arbitrary,  that  the  discount 
shall  apply  on  both  the  local  and  through  rate,  I  don't 
mean  anything  of  the  kind.     I  don't  think  it  is  susceptible 

or  t«» 
CTNIVERSITY 

iiCALIfo"^, 


Line*. 


126 

of  that  interpretation;  it  applies  only  from  common  points 
from  which  our  Tariff  provides  a  rate,  that  is  the  Through 
California  Tariff. 

Mr.  Ristine —There  are  a  lot  of  interior  points  that  take 
the  local. 

Mr.  Stubbs— Well,  the  Tariff  has  got  to  provide  for  the 
rates  from  Chattanooga  and  Southern  points.  It  should  be 
understood  that  in  the  event  of  a  discount  being  made  on 
domestics  from  New  England  points  the  request  should  be 
made  to  cover  those  parties,  big  men,  who  may  wish  to  ship 
from  Augusta,  Georgia,  for  instance,  or  the  cotton  mills  of 
the  South — that  is  what  I  mean  by  it. 

Mr.  Ristine  offered  the  following  amendment: 

Erase  all  after  the  word  "rates,"  at  the  end  of  the  resolution. 

Seconded  by  Mr.  Goddard. 

Mr.  Ristine — Leave  that  discretionary  with  the  Com- 
mittee. 

Mr.  Stubbs— It  will  be  understood  by  all  that  when  we 
were  in  Chicago  both  the  Pacific  Coast  gentlemen  and  the 
Middle  and  Western  States  gentlemen  provided  or  stipu- 
lated, when  they  consented  to  a  Discount  Contract  arrange- 
ment, that  whatever  Contracts  were  made  should  apply 
"from  all  points;"  that  is  to  say,  we  were  there  taking  them 
up  in  turn,  first  the  Pacific  Coast  Association,  getting  their 
agreement  to  the  Tariff  and  Contracts,  then  the  Middle  and 
Western  States,  and  then  the  Trunk  Lines.  Now,  they 
stipulated  that  if  they  agreed  to  the  10  per  cent.,  whatever 
was  done,  whatever  contracts  were  made,  such  contracts 
should  apply  upon  all  the  rates.  They  demanded  just  the 
thing  that  I  now  ask  here,  and  we  agreed  to  it.  Then  we 
went  down  to  New  York,  the  Trunk  Lines  refused,  and  that 
upset  the  whole  thing.  Now,  we  propose  to  go  East,  or  to 
send  a  committee  East,  with  power  to  make  from  one  sec- 
tion of  the  country  a  Discount  Tariff,  regardless  of  whether 
they  can  gee  it  from  the  points  that  we  more  especially  need 


tine's 
Amendment 


Vote  upon 
resolution 


127 

it  from  than  any  others,  and  it  ignores  some  interests  rep- 
resented here. 

A  vote  being  taken  resulted  in  the  votes  of  the  C.  P.,  S.   ^°rteR'JP°D 
P.  and  G.  H.  &  S.  A.  being  recorded  in  the  negative. 

Upon  the  resolution,  as  amended,  the  vote  stood : 

Ayes— A.  T.  S.  F.,  A.  &  P.,  U.  P.— 3.  U^Tendted. 

Nays— B.  &  M.,  C.  P.,  D.  &  E.  G.,  D.  &  R.  G.   W.,   G. 
H.  &  S.  A.,  N.  P.,  O.  R.  &  N.,  8.  P.,  T.  &  P.— 9. 

Declared  lost.     (See  page  146). 

By  Mr.  Goddard,  seconded  by  Mr.  Miller  : 

Resolved,  That  the  Acting  Commissioner  of  this  Association  be  instructed  Acting  Com- 

to  furnish  to  each  of  the  Board  of  Arbitrators  copies  of  the  Resolutions  f^irulsb^ 

passed  covering  business  to  be  pooled,  agreement  to  arbitrate,  and  time  speci-  ^oard  of 

fied  for  the  closing  of  arguments,  and  that  they  be  requested  to  convene  and  -with  resoiu- 

render  their  decision  at  the  earliest  practicable  date,  and  to  signify  their  ac-  ^e^Qg40"' 

ceptance  of  the  trust  to  the  Acting  Commissioner.  upon  the 

subject  re- 

Adopted.  ferred- 

"By  Mr.  Stubbs: 

Resolved,  That  before  pooling,  any  road  in  the  Eastern  Pool  may  deduct  Proposition 
one-half  the  average  rate  per  ton  for  Freight  or  per  Passenger  on  the  freight  ance  of  one- 
or  passengers  carried  in  excess  of  its  allotment.  ^BB  q^^ 

by  any 

In  your  judgment,  Mr.  Chairman,  is  there  any  account-  member- 
ing  difficulty  in  the  proposition  ? 

The  Commissioner — No;  very  much  easier  than  the  other 
way  of  deducting  $4.80  per  ton  for  the  line. 

Mr.  Stubbs — Mr.  Towne  directed  me  to  offer  that  resolu- 
tion. It  is  to  mitigate  any  dissatisfaction  or  possible  dis- 
ruption of  the  Pool,  on  account  of  failure  of  the  Arbi- 
trators to  hit  a  pretty  nearly  fair  distribution  of  the 
traffic  in  accordance  with  the  earnings.  He  does  not  think 
that  the  $4.80  per  ton  is  sufficient.  He  understands  how 
that  $4.80  per  ton  was  established  down  at  St.  Louis;  that 
it  was  all  we  could  get  Mr.  Hoxie  to  consent  to. 


128 


The  Commissioner— It  would  make  a  very  large  difference, 
averaging  on  the  rate  each  road  would  take  out  of  the  excess, 
because  your  average  rate  per  ton  per  mile  is  very  much  dif- 
ferent on  different  roads. 

Mr.  Stubbs— Understand  that  in  making  settlements  for 
the  month  the  Commissioner  would  find  the  average  rate  for 
the  whole  tonnage  of  the  roads,  and  take  one-half  of  that. 

The  Commissioner — All  the  roads  combined  ? 

Mr.  Stubbs — Because,  if  you  took  it  at  one-half  the  aver- 
age over  each  road,  you  see  at  once  one  road  might  carry  in 
that  month  a  larger  proportion  than  usual  of  low  class 
freight,  or  a  larger  proportion  of  first-class  freight. 

The  Commissioner— To  show  you  how  that  would  work — 
in  October  the  Central  Pacific  received  $11.43  per  ton,  while 
theB.  &  M.  received  $5-74  per  ton. 

cSngf5ent  Mr*  Goddard— I  move  to  amend,  by  making  that  in  the 
frrom0one-n  snaPe  °*  a  percentage,  deducting  for  Freight  on  the  excess 
40  per  cent,  and  for  Passenger  25  per  cent. 

Mr.  Miller — I  would  like  to  ask  if  this  is  intended  to  be 
a  part  of  the  Agreement? 

Mr.  Stubbs — Certainly.     I  will  accept  the  amendment. 

Mr.  Goddard — I  will  second  the  resolution  as  amended. 

The  Commissioner — The  resolution  as  amended  reads  as 
follows : 

Resolved,  That  any  road  in  the  Eastern  Pool,  carrying  Freight  or  Passen- 
gers in  excess  of  its  allotment,  may  deduct  at  the  rate  of  40  per  cent,  of  its 
earnings  from  the  excess  of  Freight,  and  25  per  cent,  of  its  earnings  on  its 
excess  of  Passenger,  before  pooling. 

The  vote  stood : 


half  to  a 

percentage 

basis. 


Vote  there- 
on. 


Ayes— A.  T.  &  S.  F.,   A.  &  P.,  C.  P.,  G.  H.  &  S.  A.,  S. 
P.,T.  &P.,  U.P.— 7. 

Nays— B.  &  M.,  D.  &  E.  G.,  D.  &  R.  G.  W.— 3. 

Lost. 


129 

Mr.  Goddard— The  time  is  getting  pretty  short,  and  in 
order  to  facilitate  matters  I  would  offer  the  following: 

Resolved,    That  two  committees  be  appointed,  one  General  Committee  of  Committees 
Four  upon  the  formulation  of  an  Agreement  for  the  government  of  the  Trans-   uEon'of" 
Continental  Association,  the  other  to  comprise  representation  of  the  Passen-   Agreemont. 
ger  Department  of  each  road,  to  discuss  matters  pertaining  to  the  Passenger 
Department  of  this  Association  and  to  adopt  such  rules  and  regulations  for 
their  government  as  may  seem  to  be  necessary.     The  Commissioner  to  act  as 
Chairman  of  the  Passenger  Commi'tee. 

Seconded  by  Mr.  Eccles. 

Adopted. 

Mr.  Stubbs — Is  it  understood,  since  the  failure  of  our  SonSSss 
resolution  as  to  the  increasing  the  amount  to  be  deducted  on  Sumed? 
account  of  excess,  that  the  allowance  provided  for  under 
the  old  agreement  is  to  stand,  or  must  we  debate  that  again  ? 
I  do  not  think  any  one  present  wants  anything  but  what  is 
equitable,  and  the  only  argument  against  a  deduction  for 
the  carriage  of  Freight  or  Passengers  has  been  the  tempta- 
tion to  use  that  as  a  new  way  of  getting  business. 

Mr.  Goddard  argued  favorably  upon  the  adoption  of  such 
a  provision. 

Mr.  Stubbs — The  resolution  to  increase  the  allowance  to 
40  per  cent,  on  Freight  and  to  25  per  cent,  on  Passenger 
evidently  will  not  carry  now.  Is  it  the  general  understand- 
ing here,  so  that  there  will  not  be  any  debate  upon  it,  that 
the  old  rule  of  $4.80  on  Freight  and  nothing  on  Passenger, 
or  something  corresponding  to  that,  shall  prevail  ?  If  we 
will  modify  that  resolution — reduce  it  to  33J  or  to  30  on 
Freight  and  down  to  20  per  cent,  or  something  less  on  Pas- 
senger—would that  remove  the  objections  of  those  who 
voted  in  the  negative?  I  don't  want  to  take  the  time  of  this 
meeting,  but  desire  some  instructions  to  the  General  Com- 
mittee, so  as  to  preclude  the  possibility  of  debate,  and  I 
want,  under  instructions  from  our  General  Manager,  to  get 
all  the  allowance  on  the  excess  that  we  can. 

Mr.  Miller — I  am  perfectly  willing  to  let  the  old  basis 
rule.     I  am  not  willing  to  increase  it. 


130 

Mr.  Hooper— I  am  perfectly  willing  to  let  the  Passenger 
stand  without  any  allowance. 

The  Commissioner— Under  Mr.  Goddard's  resolution  I 
would  appoint  Messrs.  Kimball,  Stubbs,  Ristine  and  Muir 
as  the  General  Committee,  and  would  call  the  Passenger 
Meeting  for  7:30  p.  m. 

Upon  motion  an  adjournment  was  taken  until  9  a.  m.  to- 
morrow. 


Wednesday,  January  21st — Morning  Session. 

Meeting  convened  at  9:30  a.  m. 

The  General  Committee  upon  the  formulation  of  the 
Agreement  being  still  in  session,  upon  motion  an  adjourn- 
ment was  taken  until  2  p.  m. 


Wednesday,  January  21st — Afternoon  Session. 
General  Committee  still  in  session. 

It  was 

Agreed  tele-  Besolved,  That  the  proper  officers  of  Lines,  members  of  this  Association, 
?™m  restor-  wiH  immediately  notify  their  several  Agents  that  on  and  after  January  22, 
etc.  1885,  all  Special  Rates,  Discounts  and  Kebates  are  cancelled  and  must  be 

withdrawn  forthwith.  Thereafter  the  published  rates  and  those  duly  an- 
nounced by  the  Commissioner  must  be  strictly  and  honestly  observed .  This 
notice  to  be  given  by  telegraph,  and  to  include  Colorado  as  well  as  Trans- 
Continental  business,  and  Agents  shall  be  instructed  to  be  governed  accord- 
ingly. 

Adjourned  until  8  p.  m. 


Wednesday,  January  21st — Evening  Session. 

Meeting  convened  at  8  p.  m. 

All  members  represented. 

The  Commissioner — I  believe  the  first  business  before  the 
meeting  will  be  the  report  of  the  General  Committee  upon 
the  revision  of  the  Agreement. 

Deferred. 


131 


Mr.  Stubbs— I  move — 

That  it  ba  the  understanding  that  the  Resolutions  providing  for  two  Pools,  Resolutions 

and  for  the  Board  of  Arbitration,  be  included  in  and  prefix  the  General  GeJeraf 

Agreement.  Agreement. 


Secouded  by  Mr.  Kimball. 
Adopted. 


By  Mr.  Stubbs: 

Eesolved,  That  Mr.  Goddard  be  appointed  a  Committee  of  One  to  wait 
upon  Vice  President  Hoxie,  of  the  Texas  and  Pacific  Company,  report  to 
him  the  nature  of  the  Agreement  consummated  at  this  session,  and  secure 
and  notify  the  Commissioner  of  the  concurrence  of  the  Texas  &  Pacific 
therein. 

Resolved,  That  Messrs.  Hoxie  and  Goddard  each  be  apprised  by  wire  of 
the  appointment  of  this  Committee. 

Seconded  by  Mr.  Smith. 

Adopted. 

It  was  agreed : 

That  the  B  >ard  of  Arbitration  in  their  discretion  may  continue  the  date 
set  for  the  hearing  of  arguments  until  March  1st,  upon  evidence  satisfactory 
to  them  being  presented  to  show  that  such  extension  desired  by  any  member 
is  necessary,  aDd  the  delay  upon  the  part  of  such  member  unavoidable. 

Mr.  Stubbs  offered  the  following: 

Resolved,  That  the  Pool  Settlements  between  the  roads  in  this  Association 
shall  be  made  on  the  following  plan : 

The  Commissioner  shall  furnish  all  members  with  statement  of  the  Freight 

and  Passenger  business  separately,  as  soon  as  such  statements  shall  be  pre- 

and  is  hereby  instructed  to  furnish  an  additional  statement  covering 

bdth  Passenger  and  Freight  business,  showing  the  total  balances  due  from  and 

to  whom  due  on  account  of  both  characters  of  traffic. 

It  is  understood  that  upon  the  latter  statement  settlements  shall  be  made. 


Mr.  Goddard 
to  interview 
officials  of 
T.  &  P.  R.  R. 
add  get  their 
assent  to 
Agreement. 


Board  of  Ar- 
bitration to 
have  power 
to  continue 
date  for  re- 
ceiving of 
Argument. 


Plan  'or 
making 
Pool  Settle- 
ments. 


Seconded  by  Mr.  Kimball. 

Adopted. 

Mr.  Stubbs— I  move- 


That  the  resolution  be  regarded  as  covering  the  Pool  Settlements  not  only 
for  the  future  but  for  the  past. 


132 


Question 
upon  intent 
of  Agree- 
ment re  Set- 
tlements 
and  debate 
thereon. 


Freight  statement  should  be  sent  to  each  member  for 
their  information.  Passenger  likewise,  both  to  be  included 
finally  in  a  consolidated  statement  upon  which  the  settle- 
ment between  the  Lines  shall  be  made.  I  take  it  that  that 
is  the  only  statement  the  Agreement  provides  for.  It  might 
transpire  that  while  a  road  may  be  "short"  on  Freight,  it 
may  be  "over"  on  Passenger.  Again,  the  Northern  Pa- 
cific subsidy  is  deducted  from  the  total  earnings,  which  can- 
not be  done  until  consolidated  statement  is  made. 

The  motion  was  adopted. 

The  Commissioner — There  is  one  point  in  the  Agreement 
which  is  not  clear  to  me.  It  states  that  this  settlement 
shall  be  made  after  deducting  the  subsidies.  The  settle- 
ments are  on  your  actual  earnings,  and  have  nothing  to  do 
with  the  Pool  whatever.  I  have  been  trying  to  get  it 
through  my  head  without  asking  the  question,  but  I  really 
cannot  do  it. 

Mr.  Stubbs — The  point  is  this,  you  first  ascertain  what 
the  earnings  of  a  given  Line  were  for  a  given  month,  then 
you  deduct  from  that  the  subsidies,  the  remainder  to  be 
pooled. 

The  Commissioner — You  make  the  same  deduction  from 


the  road  that  is  "over"  as  from  the  road  that  is 


short." 
short" 


Mr.  Stubbs — You  do  not  determine  the  "over''  and 
until  the  deductions  are  made. 

The  Commissioner — If  you  take  it  from  the  total  what 
difference  does  it  make  ? 

Mr.  Stubbs — Don't  conflict  your  subsidy  business  with 
your  pool  business. 

Informal  discussion. 

Mr.  Stubbs — The  point  is,  we  pool  on  San  Francisco, 
Marysville  and  all  the  Pacific  Coast  business.  Now  we  pay 
a  subsidy  upon  the  actual  earnings  on  San  Francisco,  and  that 
is  a  little  confusing.  The  Acting  Commissioner  will  have 
to  figure  that  out  in  some  way. 


133 


The  Commissioner — Take  the  subsidy  we  pay  the  Pacific 
Mail — §95,000  per  month,  getting  a  drawback  on  the  tonnage 
we  ship  that  way.  You  take  the  $95,000  and  get  your  credit 
of  Freight  that  yon  handle  by  P.  M.  S.  S.  and  your  Passen- 
ger business  separately,  finding  the  percentages  between  the 
two,  and  showing  the  balance  due  them  on  account  of  Pas- 
senger subsidy  and  on  account  of  Freight  subsidy,  and  then 
apply  the  Passenger  percentages  to  the  balance  due  them 
account  of  Passenger  subsidy,  and  Freight  percentages  ac- 
count Freight  subsidy — this  in  reference  to  the  mode  of  dis- 
tribution of  that  subsidy. 

Mr.  Ristine  suggested  that  the  point  in  the  Agreement 
raised  by  the  Acting  Commissioner  had  better  be  referred 
to  the  Executive  Committee  for  their  solution. 

Mr.  Stubbs— I  take  it  that  as  the  Agreement  stands  there 
is  a  confusion,  and  that  the  Commissioner  cannot  go  ahead 
without  assuming  some  responsibility  which  he  may  be  op- 
posed to  assuming,  and  I  would  offer  the  following: 

Resolved,  That  it  is  the  intent  and  meaning  of  the  Contract  providing  for 
the  payment  of  subsidies  and  the  pooling  of  earnings  that  the  Lines  "  Short  " 
shall  pay  the  share  of  subsidies  properly  chargeable  to  the  amount  transferred 
to  them  by  the  Lines  u  Over." 

Resolved,  That  the  Acting  Commissioner  shall  consider  and  report  to  the 
Executive  Committee  a  plan  which  shall  carry  out  the  intent  of  the  Contract 
as  declared  above. 


Resolution 
regarding 
Pool  Settle- 
ments. 
Commis- 
sioner to 
submit  plan 
for  carrying 
nut  intent 
of  Agree- 
ment. 


Seconded  by  Mr.  Hannaf  ord. 
Carried  unanimously. 
By  Mr.  Hannaford  : 

Resolved,    That  the  Executive  Committee  be  authorized  to  fix  a  compen-   Compensa- 
sation  for  the  services  of  Mr.  L.  G.  Cannon,  while  he  shall  act  as  Commis-   f^  con^0** 
noner. 

Seconded  by  Mr.  Smith. 
Adopted. 

Mr.  ftrUBBfl — The  Executive  Committe.  might  be  instructed 
to  do  this  as  soon  as  possible. 


niissioner: 

remarks 

theroon. 


Northern 
Pacific  al- 
lowed to 
meet  local 


ture 


134 

The  Commissioner— It  is  likely  that  Mr.  Smith  will  not 
arrive  here  before  the  first  of  the  month. 

Mr.  Hannaford— My  idea  was  that  the  Executive  Com- 
mittee could  fix  it  before  we  left  here. 

Mr.  Stcjbbs — Those  members  of  the  Committee  who  are 
here  could  agree,  and  the  certificate  of  the  Chairman  would 
be  all  the  authority  required  to  draw  the  amount. 

Mr.  Hannaford  introduced  the  question  of  making  Special 
Rates,  to  take  care  of  the  particular  interests  of  the  North- 


manufac-         em    pacific< 


Mr.  Stubbs  thought  itj^was  covered  by  the  Agreement, 
and  stated  that  he  did  not  care  what  rates  were  made  by  the 
O.  R.  &  N,  and  Northern  Pacific  to  Portland,  to  meet  local 
manufacture,  and  so  long  as  such  rates  did  not  interfere  with 
the  intent  of  the  Agreement,  he  would  be  perfectly  willing 
that  they  should  make  such  rates. 

Mr.  Hannaford  particularized  the  rates  ruling  on  Pottery 
and  claimed  them  to  be  prohibitory  as  against  the  potteries 
in  Oregon.  He  said  that  the  rate  of  78  cents,  operative  in 
1884,  would  take  care  of  the  business,  and  asked  if  there 
was  any  objection  to  his  taking  care  of  that  particular 
traffic,  if  he  could  arrange  to  do  so. 

It  was  the  sense  of  the  meeting  that  the  Northern  Lines 
might  arrange  to  take  care  of  the  business  in  question. 

The  Commissioner— Suppose  this  78  cent  rate  is  made 
by  the  Northern  Lines.  Is  there  any  objection  to  putting  it 
in  on  California  business  as  the  same  necessity  might 
apply  here. 

Mr.  Gray — We  may  not  be  able  to  secure  the  approval  of 
the  Iowa  Lines. 

Mr.  Shelby— Suppose  we  give  a  list  of  specials  necessary 
upon  articles  of  this  kind  to  the  Commissioner,  and  pass  a 
resolution  that  it  shall  become  operative  upon  a  certain 
date. 


135 

Mr.  Eistixe  suggested  that  as  a  matter  coming  under  the 
Freight  Department. 

Action  deferred  until  the  convening  of  the  Freight  De- 
partment. 

Mr.  Ristine  thought   the  words    * 'questions   of    general  ^fi^Za 
policy,"  should  be  erased  from  the  Agreement,  and  said:     I  bSeUiereoa 
would  not  regard  that  the  making  of  these  Contract  Rates  or 
any  general  scheme  of  Contract  Rates  as  being  subject  to  a 
unanimous  vote,  as  it  would  result  in  the  non-protection  of 
the  interests  of  the  majority  in  a  great  many  cases. 

Mr.  Stubbs  objected,  and  asked  for  the  reading  of  the  res-  52*5  office 
olution  upon  the  subject  of  Union  Ticket   Office  in   San  FrSSsco; 

FrancisCO.  debate  on.' 

The  Commissioner — The  resolution  introduced  by  the 
Passenger  Department  reads  as  follows : 

Resolved,  That  the  Trans- Continental  Association  establish  and  main- 
tain one,  and  only  one  City  Overland  Ticket  Office  in  San  Francisco,  for  the 
sale  of  tickets,  without  influence  or  prejudice  over  the  lines  of  all  the  mem- 
bers of  the  Association,  and  that  in  case  any  Line  establishes  another  or  in- 
dependent Ticket  Office  in  San  Francisco,  in  violation  of  this  provision,  the 
sale  ot  tickets  over  said  Line  shall  be  discontinued  in  the  Ticket  Office  of 
this  Association. 

Resolved,  That  the  Agent  in  charge  of  said  Ticket  Office,  and  his  Assistant 
or  Assistants,  shall  be  appointed  by  the  Commissioner,  subject  to  the  approval 
of  the  Executive  Committee,  and  serve  for  one  year  unless  sooner  removed  by 
the  Commissioner. 

Resolved,  That  said  Agent  and  his  Assistants  shall  be  under  the  control  of 
and  subject  to  the  orders  of  the  Commissioner. 

Mr.  Stubbs — There  is  a  pretty  good  case  where  unani- 
mous vote  ought  not  to  obtain.  I  think  a  majority  vote 
ought  to  rule  just  about  as  well. 

Mr.  Ristine — The  adoption  of  that  resolution  would  in  a 
measure  conflict  with  an  Agreement  entered  into  by  the 
Presidents  of  the  Atlantic  &  Pacific  and  Southern  Pacific 
Companies,  and  it  is  a  matter  which  I  would  not,  under  the 
circumstances  interfere  with  without  authority. 


136 

Mr.  Stubbs — There  is  no  Agreement  made  which  says 
that  the  Atlantic  &  Pacific,  Union  Pacific,  or  any  other  Pa- 
cific Company,  except  the  Central  Pacific  Company,  shall 
have  a  Ticket  Office  in  this  city.  The  Agreement  in  ques- 
tion says  that  the  Atlantic  &  Pacific  may  put  on  their 
tickets,  this  as  between  the  Central  Pacific,  the  Southern 
Pacific  and  the  Atlantic  &  Pacific.  Now,  here  is  an  Asso- 
ciation of  which  the  C.  P.  and  S.  P.  Companies  are  mem- 
bers with  the  Union  Pacific  and  other  companies  equally 
interested  in  this  business.  The  Association  is  for  mutual 
protection,  for  the  maintenance  of  rates,  and  for  economy 
of  working  the  institution.  This  resolution  did  not  origi- 
nate with  the  Central  Pacific,  but  the  Central  Pacific  has 
informed  every  one  of  these  members  that  has  interrogated 
its  officers  on  the  question,  what  the  Atlantic  &  Pacific  had 
the  right  to  do  under  their  contract.  Now,  these  Eastern 
Companies  have  been  somewhat  exercised  over  this  matter. 
They  say  if  the  Atlantic  &  Pacific  opens  an  office  here,  that 
its  only  connection  is  the  A.  T.  &  S.  F. ;  that  the  Central 
Pacific  have  a  divided  interest  which  could  not  be  associ- 
ated with  that  of  the  A.  &  P. ;  and  if  they  are  going  to  open 
a  Ticket  Office,  the  Union  Pacific  is  going  to  open  a  Ticket 
Office;  the  Texas  &  Pacific  say  they  will  open  one;  the  D.  & 
R.  G.  say  we  must  open  one,  etc.,  and  the  result  would  be 
that  we  would  have  a  number  of  Ticket  Offices.  Now,  this 
proposition,  this  suggestion,  was  made  by  the  Central  Pa- 
cific to  avoid  that — that  the  Association  shall  agree  that  there 
shall  be  but  one  Ticket  Office  here.  We  will  step  down  and 
out,  take  down  the  Central  Pacific  signs,  and  make  it  a  Cen- 
tral Union  Ticket  Office  under  the  control  of  the  Commis- 
sioner, and  that  shall  be  the  only  office  in  which  tickets 
shall  be  sold. 

Mr.  Ristine — Why  was  not  the  sign  taken  down  be- 
fore? 

Mr.  Stubbs — Time  enough  to  do  it  now. 

Mr.  Ristine— The  Atlantic  &  Pacific  paid  $7,000,000.00, 
with  that  as  one  of  the  considerations. 


137 

Mr.  Stcjbbs — This  comes  to  you  as  a  proposition  from  the 
Association,  not  from  the  Central  Pacific. 

Mr,  Ristixe— We  can  see  the  father  of  it. 

Mr.  Stubbs  -  Well,  we  are  all  apt  to  see  things  that  don't 
exist.  Mr.  Ristine,  I  am  simply  stating  this  case,  in  order 
that  we  may  have  a  proper  understanding  of  it,  and  you 
may  say  what  you  please,  these  men  know  whether  I  am 
correctly  stating  the  matter  or  not.  The  proposition  is  to 
neutralize  this  competition.  That  is  the  very  object  in  view 
in  forming  this  Association,  and  it  is  for  that  reason,  and 
that  only,  that  the  proposition  is  made,  and  I  desire  it  put 
on  record  that  so  far  as  the  individual  interests  of  the  Cen- 
tral Pacific  system  are  concerned,  it  don't  care   one 

whether  the  Atlantic  &  Pacific  opens  a  Ticket  Office  here 
or  not.  It  is  only  on  account  of  our  connections.  We 
know  it  will  raise  "Hail  Columbia"  here,  and  that  it  will 
tend  more  towards  the  disruption  of  the  Association  than 
any  other  agency.  Now,  just  put  it  out  of  your  mind  that 
the  Central  and  Southern  Pacific  care  one  cent  whether  you 
open  a  Ticket  Office  or  not.  We  made  this  Agreement  with 
you  and  we  propose  to  carry  it  out.  The  question  is, 
whether  as  an  Association  interest  it  would  be  a  better 
plan.  We  are  ready  to  come  forward  and  take  down  our 
sign.  We  are  the  only  actual  Terminal  Line,  and  for  the 
sake  of  peace  and  for  the  protection  of  the  interests  of  all, 
we  are  willing  to  come  forward  with  this  proposition  made 
by  the  Central  Pacific  system  in  the  interest  of  its  con- 
nections, in  the  iuterest  of  harmony.  That  is  the  basis 
I  desire  it  put  upon,  and  upon  no  other.  Now,  you  have  the 
statement,  and  if  I  have  misstated  the  case  as  to  the  effect,  I 
re  to  be  corrected.  They  all  know  whether  the  proposi- 
tion originates  with  the  Central  Pacific  or  not,  and  whether 
the  Central  Pacific  have  been  exercised  or  not  upon  the 
subject  of  the  Atlantic  &  Pacific  opening  a  Ticket  Office. 

Mr.  Ki>iim:— We  have  not  said  whether  we  were  or  were 
not  going  to  open  a  Ticket  Office  as  yet.     We  have  not  des- 


138 

ignated  any  time  or  date.    We  will  invite  you  all  to  be  pres- 
ent at  the  "  opening."  . 

Mr.  Stubbs— It  is-  pretty  generally  understood  that  you 
propose  it.  I  think  that  we  have  all  here  that  we  will  have 
here  to-morrow.  Why  not  act  upon  it  and  get  it  in  the  Min- 
utes of  the  General  Meeting  ? 

see  pate  135       ]\|r,  Kimball— I  will  offer  the  resolution. 

Seconded  by  Mr.  Miller. 

The  vote  stood ; 

Ayes-B.  &  M.,  0.  P.,  G.  H.  &  S.  A.,  S.  P.,  T.  &  P.,  CL 
P.— 6. 

Nays— A.  &  P.— 1. 

Declared  lost. 

[Note— The  Representatives  of  the  A,  T.  &  S.  F.,  D.  & 
K.  G.  and  D.  &  R.  G.  W.,  left  for  the  East  at  3  p.m.  to- 
day; N.  P.  and  O.  R.  &  N.  not  interested.] 

Mr.  Risttne — I  vote  "nay"  for  the  reason  that  it  is  a  mat- 
ter which  I  consider  as  beyond  my  province — a  matter  I 
would  not  feel  authorized  to  affirm,  as  it  might  modify  or 
change  the  contract  entered  into  between  the  Presidents  of 
the  Atlantic  &  Pacific  and  Southern  Pacific  Companies. 

Freight  b         ^ne  Commissioner  introduced  the  question  of  Freight  by 
fra!nsnger     passenger  trains.     Shall  it  be  considered  as  poolable  ? 

Mr.  Stubbs  offered  the  following: 

Resolved,  That  owing  to  the  fact  of  the  Freight  business  done  by  Passenger 
train  over  the  Union  Pacific  being  regarded  as  Express  business,  and  entering 
into  the  accounts  of  the  Pacific  Express  Company,  and  not  into  the  accounts 
of  the  Union  Pacific  Railroad  Company  proper,  the  managing  officer  of  the 
Union  Pacific  Company  claiming  to  have  no  authority  over  the  business 
in  question,  that  all  Freight  business  done  by  Passenger  train  by  the  other 
Companies  parties  to  this  Agreement,  be  excluded  from  the  Pool  and  from  all 
assessments  for  expenses,  subsidies,  etc.,  from  which  the  earnings  from  same 
class  of  business  on  Freight  passing  over  the  Union  Pacific  is  excluded. 


139 

Seconded  by  Mr.  Ristine. 

Adopted. 

On  motion  the  meeting  adjourned  until  9  a.m.  to-morrow. 


Thursday,  January  22cf — Morning  Session. 
Meeting  convened  at  9  a.  m. 
The  Commissioner — Do  you   desire  that  East  and  West-  Questions* 

J  to  the  re- 

bound Pool  Keports  shall  be  rendered,  such  as  I  have  pre-  Jg*8^-^ 

sented  here,  and  which  give  you  the  business  from  all  East-  members. 

em  points,  but  which  the   Consolidated  Statement  of  Pool 

Settlements  does  not  give  ?    The  latter  is  simply  a  General 

Statement,  while  the  East  and   West-bound  Reports  give 

statistical  information;  and  if  it  is  not  deemed   necessary 

that  we  compile  these  reports,  it  saves  us  considerable  labor 

in  figuring  percentages. 

Mr.  Ristine — I  should  say  that  these  reports  should  be 
continued. 

Mr.  Kimball — It  strikes  me  so.  We  would  have  a  more 
intelligent  understanding  of  the  business.  It  would  prob- 
ably cause  more  labor. 

Mr.  Hannaford — What  would  be  the  increase  in  the  ex- 
pense? 

The  Commissioner— Probably  the  Pool  is  going  to  cause 
the  employment  of  six  more  men. 

Mr.  Hannaford — I  mean  in  the  publishing  of  East  and 
West-bound  Reports — how  much  additional  expense  to  what 
you  would  necessarily  have  to  have  to  get  out  the  final  re- 
sult? 

The  Commissioner— Not  so  very  much. 

Mr.  Hannaford— About  how  much  ? 

The  Commissioner — We  might  say  one  more  clerk. 


140 


European 
Freight 
Traffic- 
Question 
thereon. 


Turpentine. 
Rate  on. 


Mr.  Hannaford — I  should  say  continue  them. 

Agreed. 

The  Commissioner— I  would  like  to  ask  a  question 


Eu- 


ropean freight  traffic,  transported  under  Through  Contracts, 
etc.,  shall  be  reported  to  the  Pool  at  actual  earnings." 
What  does  that  mean? 

Mr.  Ristine — That  means  without  regard  to  the  66  per 
cent,  of  the  New  York  rate,  if  it  goes  by  New  York. 

The  Commissioner — Do  you  mean  actual  earnings  of  the 
Association? 

Mr.  Ristine— Take  New  Orleans  business;  87|  per  cent., 
of  the  regular  rate  is  pooled. 

The  Commissioner — You  put  in  87J  per  cent,  of  the  traffic 
billed  to  New  Orleans  ? 

Mr.  Ristine — I  should  say  no.  Suppose  a  rate  on  a  com- 
modity is  $2  to  St.  Louis,  through  New  Orleans,  and  it  is 
billed  out  at  11.50.  They  have  to  put  in  87J  per  cent,  of 
$2,  which  is  the  agreed  rate,  They  do  not  put  in  actual 
earnings.  If  they  take  it  at  $1.50  they  have  to  put  in  87J 
per  cent,  of  the  tariff  rate. 

The  Commissioner — If  you  bill  it  through  on  Through 
Bills  of  Lading  at  $1.50,  and  that  is  the  through  rate,  it  is 
billed  through  to  New  Orleans  to  take  steamers  or  other 
vessels  from  there,  and  you  would  put  in  87J  per  cent,  of 
the  through  rate  of  the  line  between  here  and  New  Orleans. 

Discussion  deferred. 

The  Commissioner  presented  for  the  consideration  of  the 
members  a  letter  ex  E.  A.  Tilford,  Standard  Oil  Company, 
in  reference  to  rates  upon  Turpentine. 

Mr.  Shelby — What  is  that  Turpentine  rate  ? 

The  Commissioner — Same  rate  we  had  upon  Oil,  6130  cents 
per  gallon,  only  they  desire  this  from  St.  Louis. 


141  * 

Mr.  Stubbs— Turpentine  comes  from  St.  Louis. 

Mr.  Ristine — I  would  state  that  so  far  as  I  am  concerned 
that  there  is  no  such  understanding  as  Mr.  Tilford  names. 
There  was  no  three  years'  statement  in  the  proposition  atalL 
This  is  the  first  that  I  have  heard  of  a  contract  having  a 
three  years'  duration  in  connection  with  the  Standard  Oil 
Company.  There  was  a  point  raised  in  connection  with 
Turpentine,  as  to  whether  we  would  continue  the  Turpen- 
tine rate  from  St.  Louis,  as  it  existed  in  1884,  and  we  said 
that  we  would  endeavor  to  have  it  continued  for  the  Stand- 
ard Oil  Company.  That  is  all  I  know  about  it.  Probably 
Mr.  Stubbs  can  explain  further. 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  think  you  state  it  correctly.  At  the  same 
time,  at  the  time  we  were  negotiating  there  was  no  reasona- 
ble probability  that  we  would  not  be  able  to  accomplish  just 
what  we  said  we  would  try  to,  and  of  course  the  contract  was 
closed  with  Whittier,  Fuller  &  Co.  upon  that  basis.  In  or- 
der that  you  may  properly  understand  this  matter,  it  would 
probably  be  fair  that  I  make  an  extended  explanation.  For 
a  great  many  years  we  have  been  endeavoring  to  get  the  Oil 
traffic  onto  our  rail  lines.  It  was  almost  exclusively  done 
by  Cape  Horn.  Previous  to  the  Standard  Oil  Company 
coming  here  the  Oil  trade  of  this  coast  was  controlled  by 
A.  Hayward,  and  from  three  to  four  hundred  thousand  cases 
of  Coal  Oil  came  round  Cape  Horn  every  year.  As  early  as 
1871  the  Central  Pacific  and  Union  Pacific  endeavored  to 
take  that  Oil,  beginning  by  using  F.  B.  Taylor  &  Co.  here, 
but  we  made  no  progress  whatever.  The  first  inroads  upon 
the  traffic  were  made  by  Mr.  Blake,  of  the  Continental  Oil 
Company,  who  had  done  the  business  in  his  tank  cars  to 
Colorado  and  other  Eastern  points  for  quite  a  period.  He 
asked  me  here  to  introduce  the  Tank  Line  arrangement  into 
the  California  business.  He  was  known  to  the  Union  Pacific 
Company,  and  I  do  not  know  but  what  he  came  here  at  their 
instance  and  for  that  purpose.  He  was  at  that  time  a  man* 
of  large  capital  and  of  great  energy,  and  by  a  combination 
with  Taylor  &  Co.  they  did  make  some  progress  in  getting 


142 

Oil  onto  the  rail  lines.  Afterwards,  however,  the  Standard 
Oil  Company  undertook  to  establish  themselves  on  this  coast 
and  bought  out  Low  &  Co.,  who  had  succeeded  in  getting 
Hay  ward's  Oil  business.  They  then  came  to  us  for  a  con- 
tract, and  we  made  a  contract  with  them  and  with  the  Con- 
tinental Oil  Company  by  which  or  under  which  they 
agreed  to  ship  exclusively  by  rail,  and  the  rates 
practically  up  to  1884  have  been  what  they  were 
during  that  year.  I  believe  we  had  to  make  one  reduction. 
We  found,  however,  that  even  the  Standard  Oil  Company 
could  not  control  this  business.  There  were  firms  here  that 
had  a  commission  business,  and  had  large  capital  and  would 
either  take  consignments  of  Oil,  making  large  advances  on 
them,  or  would  buy  the  Oil  outright,  and  would  ship  round 
<3ape  Horn,  so  that  in  the  neighborhood  of  from  one  to  two 
hundred  thousand  cases  have  still  continued  to  go  round 
Cape  Horn.  The  Standard  Oil  Company  was  not  able  to 
•control  all  the  refineries  at  the  East.  The  Tide  Water  Com- 
pany was  antagonistic  to  them,  but  they  had  been  working, 
and  only  succeeded  last  year  in  neutralizing  their  competi- 
tion with  the  Tide  Water  Company,  which  gave  them  an 
additional  advantage,  although  to-day  there  are  quite  a  num- 
ber of  refineries  at  the  East,  and  some  'in  Pittsburgh, 
which  are  independent  of  and  in  competition  with  the  Stand- 
ard Oil  Company.  The  principal  man  here  who  was  in  com- 
petition with  the  Standard  Oil  Company  was  Whittier,  of 
Whittier,  Fuller  &  Co.,  a  firm  very  capable,  shrewd,  ^,nd 
with  an  abundance  of  capital.  Their  shipments  amounted 
to  over  100,000  cases  per  annum.  For  a  long  time,  I  might 
say  two  years,  I  have  urged  upon  both  the  Continental  and 
Standard  Companies  that  it  would  be  utterly  useless  for  them 
to  undertake  to  control  this  business,  unless  they  could  take 
care  of  Whittier,  Fuller  &  Co.  W.  F.  &  Co.  large  dealers  here, 
like  the  others,  had  a  large  jobbing  trade  and  also  a  retail 
trade.  They  were  strictly  speaking  a  Paint  and  Oil  house  and 
it  was  part  of  their  business.  For  two  years  they  have  been 
undertaking  more  or  less  to  control  Whittier,  Fuller  &  Co., 
and  we  have  been  aiding  them,  as  you  know,  in  the  low 


143 

rates  that  we  have  made  upon  White  Oil  and  upon  Linseed 
Oil;  but  they  found  that  bulldozing  tendencies  would  not 
work;  they  could  not  accomplish  anything.  I  think  that 
ever  since  last  January  they  have  been  trying  to  fix  the  mat- 
ter up  on  the  basis  of  co-operation.  Propositions  and 
counter  propositions  have  passed  between  them.  In  August 
last  I  was  informed  of  the  situation.  They  had  finally 
reached  a  basis  at  which  they  could  contract.  Among  other 
things  that  had  to  be  taken  care  of  was  the  Turpentine 
trade,  and  one  of  the  conditions  that  Mr.  Whittier  imposed 
was  th,at  the  Standard  Oil  Company  should  go  out  of  cer- 
tain Turpentine  trade,  and  deliver  it  here  at  five  cents  per 
gallon;  in  other  words,  deliver  it  at  about  Cape  Horn  cost. 
That  the  Standard  Oil  Company  cannot  do  and  pay  the  Oil 
rates  which  have  already  been  established;  but  they  were 
willing  to  make  some  allowance  on  Turpentine,  which, 
amounted  to  40  car-loads  per  annum,  in  consideration  of  the 
Oil  trade  of  Whittier,  Fuller  &  Co.,  although  they  make 
very  little  out  of  that,  and  the  further  relief  from  Whit- 
tier, Fuller  &  Co.'s  competition  in  this  market  in  the  way  of 
prices.  I  excused  myself  to  these  people  for  the  interest 
we  took  in  having  this  matter  fixed  up,  on  the  ground  that 
from  the  very  start  we  had  looked  forward  to  a  time  when 
this  Oil  business  should  be  fixed  to  our  lines,  and  then  we 
should  reap  some  of  the  benefits  that  we  have  been  working 
for  by  an  increased  rate.  They  had  all  the  time  expressed 
themselves  as  willing  to  stand  a  higher  rate  whenever  the 
condition  of  the  competition  was  such  that  they  could 
afford  to  pay  it.  About  the  time  that  they  had  con- 
cluded this  thing  they  came  to  me,  and  I  took  the 
ground  with  Mr.  Tilford,  that  we  wanted  an  advance  rate 
on  Coal  Oils.  They  did  not  like  that  very  much,  but  I 
referred  to  the  fact  that  they  had  promised  all  along  that 
when  the  time  came  that  they  could  afford  to  do  it,  they 
would;  and  I  thought  that  time  was  approaching  now.  I 
urged  upon  them  the  fact  that  Mr.  Vaillant,  of  the  Lake- 
Shore  Road,  had  been  after  Mr.  Ristine,  complaining  that 
the  rate  was  too  low,  and  I  feared  unless  they  would  con- 


144 

sent  to  some  advance  that  we  should  not  be  able  to  continue 
the  contract  for  the  ensuing  year.  Then  Mr.  Tilford  re- 
ferred to  their  contract  with  Whittier,  Fuller  &  Co.  as  to 
why  they  could  not  advance  the  scale  of  prices  for  the  Oil. 
They  must  agree  also  to  deliver  the  Turpentine  here  at  five 
cents  per  gallon.  I  wanted  that  we  should  keep  Turpentine 
on  the  same  level  as  Oil.  He  said,  "No;  this  is  an  arbitrary 
matter,  we  have  to  deliver  the  Turpentine  here  at  5  cents  per 
gallon,  and  we  are  willing  to  do  that  and  meet  the  loss;  but 
we  want  you  to  guarantee  us  that  the  loss  shall  not  be  greater 
than  it  would  be  based  upon  the  old  rates  of  last  year."  The 
whole  matter  was  referred  to  Mr.  Ristine,  and  we  agreed 
that  we  would  recommend  to  the  Eastern  Lines  certain  Oil 
rates.  Mr.  Tilford  said  he  would  recommend  these  rates 
to  his  people.  After  he  had  been  East  he  returned,  stating 
that  they  could  not  stand  them,  that  the  competition  was  such 
it  would  not  allow  them  to  stand  the  rates  we  proposed. 
After  we  went  to  Chicago,  Mr.  Yaillant  and  the  Pittsburgh 
men  were  met  by  us  with  Mr.  Tilford,  and  we  agreed  upon 
terms  which  made  a  difference  of  about  half  a  cent  per  gal- 
lon. In  regard  to  Turpentine,  we  said  we  would  try  our 
best  to  continue  the  old  rate.  I  cannot  think  that  Mr.  Til- 
ford understands  that  I  made  a  specific  guarantee  that  for 
three  years  the  old  rate  on  Turpentine  should  obtain,  but 
we  certainly  did  guarantee  that  we  would  do  our  utmost, 
and  at  the  time  we  gave  that  guarantee  he  was  certainly  jus- 
tified from  past  experience  in  taking  that  guarantee  as  about 
all  he  needed  in  order  to  secure  him.  I  am  willing  to  say 
this  morning — I  feel  constrained  to  say — that  I  think  the  ad- 
vantages to  the  Trans-Continental  are  such  that  we  can  af- 
ford, whether  the  Southwestern  Association  will  agree  to 
join  in  this  rate  or  not,  to  say  to  the  Standard  Oil  Com- 
pany, on  Turpentine  from  St.  Louis,  we  will  guarantee  to 
make  last  year's  rates  on  this  commodity. 

Mr.  Ristine — And  for  the  same  period  that  the  rates  on 
oil  are  guaranteed  ? 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  would  not  give  it  to  them  for  three  years. 


145 

I  would  do  it,  however,  for  the  term  of  their  Oil  contract. 
That  contract  only  extends  for  this  year. 

Mr.  Eistine — There  was  no  time  specified. 

Mr.  Stubbs — That,  however,  is  the  understanding.  My 
object  in  presenting  the  matter  is  to  get  that  thing  fixed. 
Now,  I  talked  with  Mr.  Goddard  about  that  yesterday,  and 
he  told  me  unequivocally  that  it  was  his  understanding  that 
the  old  rates  on  Turpentine  were  guaranteed  from  St.  Louis, 
and  he  said  to  me  that  he  was  willing — indeed,  he  thought 
we  ought  to  do  it — which  is  my  opinion.  I  have  thought 
nothing  about  the  three  years,  and  in  fact  I  only  glanced  at 
the  letter.  I  had  overlooked  the  fact  that  it  stated  that  we 
were  bound  for  three  years.  Of  course  this  is  only  one  step, 
not  the  final  step,  but  a  very  strong  one,  toward  securing  the 
entire  Oil  Traffic  to  the  rail. 

Mr.  Shelby  spoke  of  the  liability  of  the  California  produc- 
tion competing  heavily  for  the  Oil  business  of  the  coast. 

Mr.  Stubbs  thought  there  was  no  fear  of  that  from  present 
indications. 

By  Mr.  Stubbs: 

Resolved,  That  the  Acting  Commissioner  confer  with  the  Pacific  Coast  Asso- 
ciation and  obtain  their  approval  to  the  Turpentine  rate  from  St.  Louis  that 
existed  last  year,  to  continue  during  this  year,  for  the  Standard  and  Continental 
Oil  Companies,  and  explain  to  the  Pacific  Coast  Association  that  we  were 
enabled  to  secure  higher  rates  on  Tank  and  Case  Oil  in  consideration  of  this 
protection  on  Turpentine. 

Seconded  by  Mr.  Miller. 

Adopted. 

By  Mr.  Stubbs— I  move — 

That  it  be  the  understanding  that  the  rates  on  Turpentine  from  St.  Louis 
to  Pacific  Coast  through  points,  guaranteed  to  the  Standard  and  Continental 
Oil  Companies  during  the  year  1884,  be  approved  for  1885,  with  the  further 
understanding  that  this  Association  protect  them  whether  the  Pacific  Coast 
Association  Lines  join  with  them  or  not. 

Seconded  by  Mr.  Smith. 
Carried. 


era  Assns. 


146 

The  Commissioner — Is  the  Committee  ready  to  report  this 
morning. 

committee        Mr.  Ristine — I  would  like  to  know  whether  we  are  going 

to  confer  .  .  ..._,._.  ,  . 

wfthEast-  to  have  a  committee  visit  the  Trunk  Line  and  other  Associ- 
eiations  to  see  whether  we  cannot  come  to  some  understand- 
ing with  them  or  not. 

Mr.  Hannafokd  offered  the  following — 

Resolved,  That  a  committee  of  three  be  selected  to  await  on  the  Pacific 
Coast.  Middle  and  Western  States  and  Trunk  Line  Associations,  authorized 
to  treat  with  them  for  authority  to  make  a  limited  number  of  Special  Con- 
tracts on  Pacific  Coast  business.  Such  contracts  to  be  on  a  percentage  re- 
duction basis,  and  with  the  understanding  that  such  reductions  shall  apply- 
equally  from  all  points  covered  by  above  Associations. 

Tiesolved,  That  when  said  authority  be  secured,  the  Committee  shall  send 
their  report  to  the  Commissioner,  and  the  Commissioner  shall  have  the  au- 
thority to  make  the  contracts. 

Seconded  by  Mr.  Ristine. 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  am  willing  to  vote  for  the  resolution  with 
the  understanding 

That  the  Committee  have  authority  and  shall  be  instructed  to  treat  with 
the  New  England  Lines  in  like  manner  as  with  the  Trunk  Lines,  but  that  in 
case  of  failure  to  secure  the  assent  of  the  New  England  Lines,  that  shall  not 
be  construed  as  prohibiting  them  from  going  ahead  and  making  contracts 
from  Trunk  Lines,  Middle  and  Western  States  Lines  and  Pacific  Coast  Lines 
points,  regardless  of  the  fact  that  they  cannot  do  so  from  New  England 
points. 

I  would  like  to  have  the  resolution  name  the  Committee. 
I  think  they  should  be  Eastern  representatives,  and  would 
suggest  Messrs.  Kimball,  Goddard  and  Olds,  and  if  Mr. 
Olds  will  not  go,  I  should  substitute  Mr.  Miller. 

Mr.  Hannafokd  thought  the  gentlemen  named,  owing  to 
their  connection  with  the  Pacific  Coast  Association,  would 
do  considerable  good. 

Mr.  Ristine  was  of  the  opinion  that  the  Central  Pacific 
should  be  represented. 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  am  perfectly  willing  to  commit  my  inter- 
est to  the  parties  named. 


147 

Mr.  Ristine — I  think  it  ought  to  be  a  Committee  of  rep- 
resentatives from  each  Line,  same  as  the  Executive  Com- 
mittee. 

Mr.  Stcbbs — If  you  want  to  make  it  a  Committee  com- 
posed of  a  representative  from  each  line,  you  might  put  Mr. 
Gray  on  the  Committee  with  Mr.  Hawley  as  alternate.  For 
the  Central  Pacific,  Southern  Pacific  and  G.  H.  &  S.,  A.  we 
will  name  Mr.  Gray,  with  Mr.  Hawley  as  alternate.  I  want 
it  understood,  if  this  is  to  be  a  Committee  of  representa- 
tives from  each  Line,  whether  the  action  of  that  Committee 
is  going  to  be  unanimous,  as  the  Executive  Committee  have 
to  be,  or  not.  If  it  is  not  going  to  be  unanimous,  I  shall 
claim  three  votes. 

Mr.  Kimball  was  suggested  for  Chairman  of  the  Commit- 
tee, bur  declined,  as  he  was  already  Chairman  of  several 
Committees,  and  presented  the  Secretary  with  list  of  names 
which  he  thought  should  serve  on  the  Committee,  reading 
as  follows: 

Messrs.  Ristine,  Hannaford,  Kimball,  Gray,  Olds  and  Miller. 

The  Commissioner — It  is  understood,  of  course,  that  each 
member  of  the  Committee  bears  his  own  expenses. 

No  objection  being  offered,  it  was  so  understood. 

Mr.  Stubbs'  proposed  understanding  in  reference  to  in- 
terview with  the  New  England  Lines  being  accepted,  the 
resolution,  including  the  names  suggested  by  Mr.  Kimballl, 
was  adopted  unanimously. 

Mr.  Kimball  (handing  printed  draft  of  the  Agreement  to  qJ^J^0' 
the  Acting  Commissioner)— The  Committee  present  this  as  2°Sn?i"Su- 
the  result  of  their  labors,  and  I  would  move —  lationof 

'  Agreement. 

That  the  Agreement  be  taken  up  section  by  section. 

Seconded  by  Mr.  Miller. 

Adopted. 

The  Preamble  to  the  Agreement  being  read,  Mr.  Eistine  objections 

°  to  Preamble 


148 

including*0  sai(Jr    Mr-   Kimball,  I  desire  to  make  a  little  explanation. 

»ho?t°Lme.  Mr.  Goddard  stated  that  be  should  object  to  the  Oregon 
Short  Line  being  admitted  to  membership.  I  now  desire  to 
note  that  objection,  in  the  hope,  however,  that  it  will  be 
removed.  I  expect  to  see  Mr.  Goddard  in  the  East,  when  I 
trust  the  matter  will  be  fixed  all  right. 

Kciidin        ^r*  &MITH  a^so  noted  objection  to  the  Preamble — "in- 
8tBtanC'By  ceding  Missouri  Pacific  Railway  system. ;'     Mr.  Smith  was 

informed  that  in  all  former  agreements  Mr.   Hoxie  had  so 

subscribed  for  his  Company. 

ciaim  of  o.       Mr.  Kimball — The  Oregon  Short  Line  would  claim  a  vote. 

S.  L.  for  rep-  ° 

resema«ion.  We  regard  the  Oregon  Short  Line  under  the  new  Agree- 
ment as  entitled  to  the  same  representation  as  any  other  in- 
dependent Railroad  Company  that  is  a  member  of  this  As- 
sociation. The  Oregon  Short  Line  Railway  Company  is 
entirely  independent  in  its  stock,  in  its  bonds,  in  its  charter 
and  in  its  organization,  of  the  Union  Pacific  Compariy.  It 
comes  in  here  and  agrees  to  the  terms  of  this  Agreement, 
assumes  and  undertakes  to  discharge  all  the  obligations  of 
membership.  It  undertakes  to  pay  its  proportion  of  the 
Northern  assessment  or  subsidy  to  the  Southern  Lines.  It 
claims  its  share  of  the  Southern  subsidy  to  the  Northern 
Lines.  There  is  no  pledge  under  that  Agreement  that  the 
Oregon  Short  Line  does  not  consider  itself  bound  by, 
bound  to  observe,  precisely  as  any  other  member;  and  I 
want  to  give  notice  now  that  if  the  membership  of  the  Oregon 
Short  Line  is  declined  by  one  member  or  more,  the  Union 
Pacific  Company  will  not  sign  that  Agreement. 

Section  I.     Adopted. 
Section  II. 

position  of  Mr.  Ristine— The  D.  &  R.  G.,  A.  T.  &  S.  F.  and  T.  &  P. 
aubscribfng  are  not  represented  here  directly.  It  is  understood  that  the 
ment.and  operation  of  this  Agreement  is  conditional  upon  all  roads 
Excursion  signing  it.  I  desire  to  say  here  that  I  propose  to  be  placed 
upon  precisely  the  same  basis  as  enjoyed  by  the  Santa  Fe 
road  to-day,  so  far  as  committing  myself  is  concerned,  until 


149 


O.  R.  k.  N. 
claim  share 
in  subsidy 
paid  by  Nor- 
thern Lines 
to  Southern- 
Lines. 


I  know  their  action  definitely.  I  think  it  will  be  all  right, 
though.  I  object  to  the  clause  relating  to  "  Excursions" — 
I  do  not  desire  that  the  matter  be  left  entirely  open — that 
is,  I  do  not  desire  that  Excursion  business  be  openly  advo- 
cated. I  am  willing  to  provide  for  First  Class  East-bound 
Excursions,  but  not  Third  Class.     It  should  be  qualified. 

Mr.  Smith  offered  counter-objections,  claiming  it  would 
demoralize  the  Southern  business. 

Section  III.     Adopted. 

Section  IV.     Adopted. 

Section  V.     Adopted. 

Section  VI. 

Mr.  Muir — I  should  like  inserted  in  that  section  : 

It  being  understood  that  the  O.  E.  &  N.  shall  share  in  the  Portland  subsidy 
paid  to  the  Southern  Lines. 

The  suggestion  of  Mr.  Muir  not  being  received  with 
favor,  he  desired  his  objection  noted  to  the  adoption  of  Sec- 
tion VI,  unless  it  provided  for  the  point  raised  by  him. 

Section  VII.     Adopted. 
Section  VIII. 

An  objection  was  raised  by  Mr.  Stebbins  and  others  to  upon  mo- 
the  exclusion  of  business  for  Mojave,  Yuma  and  Roseville  Ss  pr o^r. 
Junctions  proper. 

Mr.  Ristine  was  willing  to  include  Mojave,  if  it  were 
made  a  California  common  point. 

After  some  discussion  the  point  was  passed,  and  the  Sec- 
tion adopted. 

Section  IX.     Adopted. 

Section  X.     Adopted. 

Section  XI.     Adopted. 

Section  XII.     Adopted. 

Section  XIII. 


150 


Sec.  XIII. 
Questions 
of  General 
Policy. 


Fruit  Rates. 


Debate    up- 
on the  adop- 
tion of  the 
Agreement, 
and  upon 
objections 
noted. 


Messrs.  Ristine  and  Miller  desired  their  objections  noted 
to  the  words  occurring  in  the  last  clause,  Section  XIII, 
"  questions  of  general  policy." 

Mr.  Stubbs — The  members  are  no  doubt  all  advised  as  to 
the  matter  of  Memorial  of  the  California  Fruit  and  Grape 
Producers.  The  Central  and  Southern  Pacific  Companies 
think  we  ought  to  modify  these  rates— think  they  ought  to 
be  reduced.  I  would  like  to  have  the  matter  considered.  I 
had  no  idea  in  presenting  this  matter  that  the  Association 
would  take  it  up  to-day  and  attempt  to  change  these  rates, 
but  thought  they  might  agree  to  leave  it  in  the  hands  of  the 
Committee  in  connection  with  the  Acting  Commissioner. 

Mr.  Miller — I  think  that  would  be  a  good  idea,  pro- 
vided we  adopt  the  Agreement. 

It  was  agreed  to  refer  the  formulation  of  the  Fruit  Circu- 
lar to  the  proper  officers,  Pacific  Coast  Terminal  Lines,  and 
the  Commissioner. 

The  Commissioner — I  would  like  to  know  whether  the 
members  are  disposed  to  accept  Mr.  Kimball's  report  or 
not.  The  report  has  been  duly  submitted,  section  by  sec- 
tion. No  action  has  been  taken  thereon.  I  think  there 
should  be  some  disposition  made  of  this  report  before  pro- 
ceeding to  further  business. 

Mr.  Miller — I  move  the  adoption  of  the  report  of  the 
Committee  as  read  and  approved  by  sections. 

Mr.  Ristine— Several  members  are  absent. 

Mr.  Kimball — With  the  understanding  that  the  Agree- 
ment be  adopted  by  this  Association,  subject  to  the  concur- 
rence of  each  member  therein. 

Mr.  Stubbs — We  all  understand  that  the  Texas  &  Pacific 
have  to  understand  the  subject,  that  the  D.  &  R.  G.  repre- 
sentatives have  left.  There  may  be,  however,  some  one  here 
empowered  to  sign  for  them.  I  don't  know  whether  we 
should  commit  ourselves,  not  knowing  whether  Mr.  God- 
darcl  may  mean  to  sign  it  or  not. 


151 

Mr.  Ristixe — We  will  all  maintain  it  until  we  hear  from 
all  the  parties  in  interest.     I  think  that  would  be  proper. 

Mr.  Kimball — Unless  the  Report  of  the  Committee  is 
adopted,  all  the  actions  that  follow  the  provisions  of  that 
Agreement  fail.  We  cannot  go  on  with  the  Committees 
under  the  provisions  of  the  Agreement.  We  cannot  set  the 
Arbitrators  to  work  to  fix  our  percentages.  We  cannot  ap- 
point the  Commissioner. 

Mr.  Ristine — Will  you  agree  to  allow  the  clause  relating  JJJf^PJJJ 
to  "  unanimous  vote"  to  stand  same  as  it  was  under  pre-  JsvUesuon8of 
vious  Agreements?    That  would  be  one  step  towards  it%  pJucraletc  • 

debate 

Mr.  Kimball — Personally  I  am  very  much  inclined  to  the   hereon- 
principle   that  in  an  Association  of  this  sort,  any  important 
action  taken  should  be  unanimous. 

Mr.  Ristixe— I  think  so  myself.     I  do  not  dispute  that. 

Mr.  Stubbs — You  believe  that  any  important  action  should 
be  unanimous,  yet  you  want  the  words  "general  policy' 
stricken  out. 

Mr.  Ristixe— I  say  it  does  not  define  the  matter  clearly; 
it  is  confusing.  I  claim  that  the  previous  sentence  covers 
it,  "  the  adoption  of  any  proposition  that  involves  revenue.'' 
That  is  all  I  ask.  The  Commissioner  can  decide  whether 
a  matter  arising  is  a  question  of  general  policy  or  not.  You 
can  appeal  to  his  decision,  I  do  not  object  in  order  to  be 
technical,  or  to  take  advantage  of  anything. 

.Mi.  STUBBS — We  want  it  declared  that  all  important  ac- 
tions that  affect  the  general  policy  of  this  Association  shall 
1m-  made  only  by  unanimous  vote. 

Mr.  toTINX— Leave  questions  of  general  policy  in,  but 
take  out  the  word  "  Special." 

Mi.  Sti IBB8 — I  told  you  yesterday  that  I  was  willing  to 
do  so,  but  that  when  I  did  so,  I  would  want  recorded  with 
in  v  vote  the  fact  that  I  should  hold  that  any  such  scheme  as 
the   adoption  of  a  Contract  Plan,  for  example,  a  committee 


152 

to  go  down  East  and  negotiate  with  connecting  lines  to  make 
Special  Contracts,  and  then  putting  the  authority  to  make 
these  Special  Contracts  in  the  hands  of  the  Commissioner 
would  not  come  under  the  head  of  the  rate-making  power 
which  could  be  governed  by  a  majority  vote. 

Mr .  Ristine — Suppose  we  concede  on  that  one  point. 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  simply  gave  that  as  an  illustration.  An- 
other point  I  made  was  this.  In  order  that  the  Association 
may  fully  understand  it,  the  changing  of  the  Tariff  from 
Chicago,  altering  the  ratio  of  the  Chicago  rates  to  the  New 
York  rates,  would  be  a  question  that  ought  to  be  decided  by 
unanimous  vote,  and  not  by  a  majority  vote.  Another  illus- 
tration I  gave  was,  that  the  changing  of  the  relations  of 
Chicago,  St.  Louis  and  New  Orleans,  I  regarded  would  be 
one  of  general  policy,  Mr.  Hannaford  very  quickly  expressed 
himself  that  the  question  of  renewal  of  the  Spreckels  Con- 
tract, which  involves  not  only  the  question  of  making  a 
freight  rate  East-bound,  but  also  the  question  of  what 
should  be  done  West-bound,  and  where  there  was  a  conside- 
ration given — that  he  would  hold  as  requiring  a  unanimous 
vote.     I  think  he  is  right. 

Mr.  Ristine — I  think  so.  If  that  rate  is  to  be  conditioned 
upon  a  prohibitory  rate  from  the  East,  it  is  a  question  of 
general  policy,  undoubtedly.     I  should  hold  that  myself. 

Mr.  Stubbs — In  so  far  as  the  bearing  it  may  have  upon 
the  Association  goes,  I  do  not  care  that  these  views  of  mine 
should  be  a  matter  of  record,  because  if  we  were  to  take 
the  word  "  special  "  out,  and  the  question  came  up,  you, 
holding  as  I  understand  you  do,  that  a  change  of  the  Gen- 
eral Tariff  from  Chicago  could  be  made  by  a  majority  vote, 
I  should  object,  and  we  would  have  to  have  a  ruling,  and  I 
would  take  my  chances  then;  but  I  want  the  Association 
clearly  to  understand  what  they  are  voting  for  when  they 
vote  for  rate-making  power  by  a  majority. 

Mr.  Ristine — There  will  always  be  a  question  as  between 
rates  and  revenue.     All  we  want  is  a  precedent.     I  pre- 


153 

sumed  thrit  intent  was  a  very  important  feature,  but  I  should 
certainly  say,  for  instance,  suppose  the  Texas  &  Pacific  is 
made  entirely  independent  of  the  Missouri  Pacific,  and  the 
balance  of  the  Association  should  desire  to  change  the  rates 
from  the  Missouri  Kiver,  put  them  on  a  different  basis,  they 
not  running  to  the  River  could  block  the  whole  game.  I 
say  that  is  wrong. 

Mr.  Stubbs — Very  well,  you  have  no  right,  neither  have 
I,  to  assume  that  one  member  is  going  to  be  an  obstruction- 
ist, that  he  objects  to  a  proposition  in  that  sense.  The  right 
principle  would  be  to  assume  that  there  are  reasons  which 
proceed  from  the  interest  of  his  Line  that  cause  him  to  ob- 
ject to  it,  and  if  we  concede  that  and  go  upon  that  principle, 
we  have  every  reason  to  believe  that  a  reasonable  proposi- 
tion, or  the  proposed  changing  of  a  rate  which  will  have  the 
effect  of  increasing  rather  than  reducing  the  revenues  of  this 
Association,  will  secure  a  unanimous  vote,  and  I  do  not 
think  we  have  anything  to  fear.  With  the  experience  I  have 
had  I  would  be  perfectly  willing  to  make  it  all  subject  to 
unanimity,  the  rate-making  power  and  special  rates  too.  I 
would  be  willing  to  do  that.  I  do  not  think,  however,  it 
would  be  necessary;  do  not  think  it  would  be  expedient.  It 
might  very  often  prove  a  cause  of  delay.  Suppose  we  do 
takeout  the  word  "Special,"  and  the  Texas  &  Pacific  or 
even  the  D.  &.  R.  G.  Western,  (that  has  the  smallest  inter- 
est in  the  Line),  should  object  to  a  certain  rate,  and  found 
the  objection  on  good  grounds  affecting  the  interests  of  that 
Company,  and  the  majority  arbitrarily  went  to  work  and 
made  that  rate,  did  not  give  their  interest  due  considera- 
tion, the  effect  of  it  would  be  to  bring  a  notice  at  once,  and 
the  Association  would  immediately  be  in  peril.  The  way  we 
have  our  Agreement  framed  the  minority  controls  this  Asso- 
ciation at  any  time,  practically,  under  threat  of  withdrawal. 
With  this  statement  as  a  matter  of  record,  I  am  perfectly 
willing  to  strike  out  the  word  "  Special." 

Mr.  KlKBALL  -poke  favorably  to  adoption  of  the  unani- 
mous principle  in  the  government  of  the  actions  of  the  As- 
sociation. 


154 

EastTouSa.  Mr.  Ristine  referred  to  the  matter  of  Excursions  east- 
bound,  and  thought  the  clause  governing  that  matter  should 
be  qualified,  admitting  the  running  of  Third-class  Excur- 
sions. 

Mr.  Smith  claimed  that  the  Excursion  Agents  in  the  South 
were  all  working  in  the  interest  of  the  Atlantic  &  Pacific 
Line,  and  that  he  had  not  been  able  to  secure  any  of  that 
business.  He  stated  his  inclination  to  keep  out  of  the 
Southern  Territory,  as  far  as  the  Third-Class  East-bound 
Excursion  business  is  concerned,  leaving  it  to  the  Ticket 
Agent  at  Los  Angeles  to  divide  the  business  equally.  He 
thought  if  Mr.  Ristine  was  allowed  to  go  into  that  territory 
and  run  the  Excursions  in  question,  through  Excursion 
Agents  acknowledged  to  be  his  men,  it  would  put  the  Texas 
&  Pacific  to  the  expense  of  going  after  the  business,  and  the 
result  would  be  a  demoralization  of  the  whole  business  in 
the  South, 

Mr.  Stebbins — As  far  as  the  working  up  of  the  business  is 
concerned,  each  Line  has  the  same  opportunity  for  putting 
agents  in  the  field  as  the  others  have.  This  question,  how- 
ever, should  be  considered  on  the  ground  of  benefit  to  the 
entire  Association.  Mr.  Goodman  can  tell  more  about  the 
effect  of  these  Excursions  in  the  past  than  anybody  else 
here;  but  so  long  as  there  is  so  great  a  difference  between 
our  Eirst-class  rates  and  our  Third-class  rates  any  encour- 
agement that  is  offered  to  the  Third-Class  Excursion  busi- 
ness tends  inevitably  to  draw  away  business  from  our  First- 
class  trains. 

Mr.  Ristine — Why  don't  you  work  consistently  on  that? 
I  had  more  trouble  during  my  administration  as  Commis- 
sioner with  your  Company  upon  this  very  proposition  than 
the  members  are  generally  aware  of. 

Mr.  Stebbins — I  do  not  think  we  have  done  as  much  of 
that  as  some  others  have  done.  At  least,  I  have  never  heard 
of  it. 


Agreemeut. 


155 

Mr.  Ristine— I  do  not  desire  to  open  the  door,  but  merely 
wish  to  take  care  of  occasional  parties. 

No  action  was  had  upon  the  objection  of  A.  &  P.  to 
Excursion  clause. 

Mr.  BTDBBS — I  would  like  to  ask  how  this  matter  stands?  upon  the  ni- 

tiniate  sign- 

Suppose  we  should  agree  among  ourselves,  those  who  are  ins  of  the 
here  to-day,  upon  the  adoption  of  this  Agreement.  Then  it 
lias  to  go  to  the  Atchison  to  secure  the  approval  of  that 
Company,  or  be  coolly  set  in  the  shades  of  the  Topeka 
office,  to  be  sat  upon  and  objected  to  without  any  opportu- 
nity on  the  part  of  the  others  to  answer  their  objections  or 
to  urge  their  specific  views. 

Mr.  Ristine— I  think  it  is  very  probable  that  no  difficulty 
will  be  experienced.  Mr.  Goddard  may,  perhaps,  send  no- 
tice of  one  or  two  corrections  or  modifications  which  he  may 
desire  made  before  he  consents  to  it.  ■ 

Mr.  BTUBB8— That  is  what  I  fear.  If  Mr.  Goddard  urges 
objections  that  I  cannot  approve,  I  want  to  have  a  chance  to 
see  if  there  is  any  opportunity  of  changing  his  views. 

Mr.  Ristine — Have  it  distinctly  understood.  Pass  a  reso- 
lution here  that  the  Agreement  is  to  stand  as  presented  and 
printed,  that  it  be  submitted  to  all  members,  and  should  any 
of  the  members  object  to  any  portion  of  it,  they  shall  fully 
and  clearly  explain  such  objections.  Everything  in  its  con- 
nection to  obtain  and  hold  in  the  interim,  and  be  reli- 
giously maintained  in  all  respects,  the  same  as  if  the  Contract 
was  signed. 

Mi .  BTUBBS — It  will  take  three  or  four  weeks  to  get  this 
thing  settled.  In  the  meantime  we  cannot  provide  for  refer- 
ence to  arbitration.  Who  can  pat  in  a  statement  to-day?  We 
have  no  Association — no  Agreement.  Why  cannot  you  put 
in  a  telegram  to  Mr.  Goddard  and  ask  him  whether  he  will 
consent  or  not?     We  have  made  no  radical  changes. 

Ki-tint.  —Mr.  Kimball  is  going  to  Denver,  and  will  in 
all  probability  see  Mr.  Goddard  on  Monday.  I  will  agree 
to  anything  Mr.  Goddard  agrees  to. 


156 

Mr.  Stubbs — That  will  further  complicate  the  matter; 
while  on  the  other  hand,  I  feel  if  you  should  say,  "  I  will 
do  this,"  that  he  would  also  do  it.  With  the  close  relations 
between  your  lines  it  looks  to  me  like  procrastination  and 
delay.  He  ought  to  have  stayed  here  yesterday,  and  helped 
to  see  the  thing  through.  We  will  agree  to  strike  the  word 
"  Special"  out  (speaking  for  my  own  interest),  you  agreeing 
to  take  under  advisement  the  question  whether  you  will 
adopt  a  rule  providing  for  unanimous  vote  on  everything. 

Mr.  Ristine  declined  to  commit  himself  definitely  until 
he  had  placed  the  matter  before  Mr.  Goddard,  as  he  pro- 
posed to  vote  jointly  with  him  upon  the  several  propositions. 

By  Mr.  Ristine— I  move — 

That  the  Agreement  as  presented  by  the  Committee  be  forwarded  to  the 
absent  members  with  a  request  that  they  signify  their  assent  thereto  (by  wire 
if  necessary),  to  the  Commissioner  by  February  1st,  and  that  in  the  meantime 
the  Agreement  be  carried  out  as  printed  by  the  Commissioner  in  every  par- 
ticular, and  be  binding  upon  all  members  until  all  are  finaUy  heard  from. 

Not  seconded. 

Mr.  Stubbs — You  are  unwilling  to  agree  to  this  thing  to- 
day, but  hold  your  approval  subject  to  the  A.  T.  &  S.  F. 
and  T.  &  P.  I  want  to  know  whether  you  are  willing  to 
agree  to  it  to-day. 

Mr.  Ristine — There  is  no  "  nigger  in  the  wood  pile " 
in  any  way.  I  say  there  are  three  or  four  members 
that  are  absent.  There  are  two  or  three  things  in  the 
Agreement  as  it  stands  that  Mr.  Goddard  and  myself  talked 
over,  and  that  I  doubt  very  much  if  he  will  subscribe  to, 
but  if  he  will,  I  will. 

Mr.  Stubbs— Are  you  willing  to  go  through  it  with  us 
here  to-day  and  say  what  you  will  agree  to  and  what  you 
will  not  agree  '    ? 

Mr.  Risttne — I  will  carry  out  the'  terms  of  the  Agreement 
in  every  particular  until  the  other  members  are  heard  from. 

Further  discussion. 


157 

Mr.  Stubbs — I  want  to  do  tins :  That  we  shall  agree  among 
ourselves,  if  it  is  possible,  and  that  then  you  shall  telegraph 
Mr.  Goddard,  knowing  as  you  do  what  his  points  of  objec- 
tion are,  if  any,  saying  how  you  have  agreed  to  settle  upon 
them,  and  ask  him  to  telegraph  his  assent,  which  will  give 
it  to  us  by  Saturday.  I  said  that  we  did  not  want  this 
Agreement  to  go  down  to  Topeka,  where  it  might  be  criti- 
cized and  objections  made  to  it,  and  we  have  no  opportunity 
to  answer  them. 

Mr.  Eistine — I  will  telegraph  Mr.  Goddard,  and  give  him 
all  the  different  points. 

Mr.  Stubbs — You  will  vote  for  that  Agreement  if  we  take 
out  the  word  "Special,"  and  you  further  will  take  under  con- 
sideration the  unanimous  vote  proposition  and  the  other 
objection  ? 

Mr.  Eistine — There  is  nothing  else  other  than  the  Excur- 
sion matter  which  I  can  recall.  Mr.  White  was  very  em- 
phatic on  that  point.  I  do  not  want  to  be  placed  in  a  posi- 
tion where  the  Santa  Fe  might  say  "Yes"  to  one  thing  and 
we  say  "No"  to  another. 

Mr.  Stubbs  asked  if  Mr.  Eistine  would  not  subscribe 
to  the  Agreement  with  the  modification  as  suggested  ? 

Mr.  Eistine— I  say  that  I  will  take  up  the  different  points 
with  Mr.  Goddard.  I  am  not  going  to  insist  very  strongly 
upon  the  Excursion  clause. 

Mi.  Stubbs — But  you  decline  to  take  up  the  Agreement 
and  vote  upon  its  adoption  ? 

Mi.  Eistine — I  have  expressed  myself. 

It  was  ordered  that  the  word  "Special  "  occurring  in 
third  line,  fifth  clause,  Section  XIII,  be  elir    ^ated. 

Mr.  Kimball — We  all  understand  what  we  are  voting  on 
now.  Let  us  have  a  roll-call  upon  the  motion  I  made  to 
adopt  this  Agreement,  and  discharge  the  Committee. 


158 


Motion  to 
adopt 

Agreement, 
and  vote 
thereon. 


By  Mr.  Kimball  : 

I  move  the  adoption  of  the  Agreement  as  read. 

Seconded  by  Mr.  Stubbs. 

The  vote  stood  as  follows : 

Ayes— A.  &  P.,  B.  &  M.,  C.  P.,  D.  &  K.  G.,  D.  &  E.  G. 
W.,  G.  H.  &  S.  A.,  N.  P.,  O.  R.  &  N.,  S.  P.,  T.  &  P., 
U.  P.— 11. 

[Note. — Mr.  Ristine's  vote,  account  of  A.  &  P.,  was  recorded  in  the  affirm- 
ative, with  the  understanding  that  the  Atlantic  &  Pacific  Company  does  not 
in  any  way  commit  itself,  or  change  its  Contracts  or  Agreements  with  the 
Southern  Pacific  Railroad  Company,  and  also  conditioned  upon  the  accept- 
ance of  the  Agreement  by  the  Atchison  Company.  Mr.  Miller's  vote  account 
D.  &  R.  G.  and  D.  &  R.  G.  W.  were  subject  to  the  approval  of  their  respective 
Receivers.  Mr.  Hannaford's  vote,  account  O.  R.  &  N.  was  made  with  the 
following  remarks:  "Mr.  Muir  authorized  me  last  evening  to  vote  aye,  with 
the  proviso  that  his  Line  would  waive  none  of  its  rights  to  demand  a  pro- 
porti  on  of  thesubsidy  paid  by  the  Northern  Lines  to  the  Southern  Lines." 
Mr.  Smith's  vote  account  T.  &  P.  was  declared  to  be  subject  to  the  approval 
of  the  general  officers  of  that  company.  ] 

Mr.  Stubbs — It  is  the  understanding  that  Mr.  Ristine  will 
communicate  with  Mr.  Goddard  at  once  this  afternoon,  on 
the  train,  and  endeavor  to  secure  a  response  from  Mr.  God- 
dard to  the  Commissioner  as  early  as  possible. 

By  Mr.  Hannaford  : 

That  the  matter  of  Special  Contracts  be  left  in  the  hands  of  the  Committee, 
to  be  taken  up  at  their  earliest  convenience. 

Seconded  by  Mr.  Kimball. 

Adopted. 

Adjourned. 

Note. — The  following  telegraphic  correspondence  occurred 
prior  to  the  adjournment  of  the  meeting: 

"Richmond,  Va.,  Jan.  21. 
Thos.  L.  Kimball,   J.  M.  Hannaford,  J.  C.  Stubbs,   J.  F.  Goddard,  Executive 
Committee,  T.-C.  Association : 

Your  telegram  received  last  evening.    A  true  surprise.    Where  _will  head- 


159 

quarters  be,  and  what  length  of  time  will  engagement  cover  ?  With  this  in- 
formation will  consider  proposition,  and  give  definite  answer  early  next 
week. 

The  generous  action  of  your  Committee  gratefully  appreciated. 

(Signed)  C.  W.  Smith." 

"  San  Francisco,  Jan.  21. 
'  .  if.  Smith,  Richmond,  Va.i 

Present  headquarters  at  San  Francisco,  and  this  point  preferred.     Your 
u  guaranteed  for  one  year,  with  decided  probability  it  will  be  perma- 
nent. 

(Signed)  Thos.  L.  Kimball, 

J.  M.  Hannafoed, 
J.  C.  Stubbs, 

J.   F.    GODDABD, 

Executive  Committee." 


L.  G.  CANNON, 

Acting  Commissioner 


\BRARy 

0f  cau*o*£& 


V 


-1 


